A Guide to Depression from Someone Who Knows the Darkness and Chooses "Surthriving" over Suffering

Rachel Hollander is an InterFaith/InterSpiritual minister and the author of "From There to Here: An Insider's Guide to Navigating the Darkness," a captivating book about living with depression. 

Rachel also is a performer who is skilled in American Sign Language, and she has a great podcast that you can access from her website. If you love dogs, you may want to check out the specific show about Maddie, her late canine companion. It's mystical and quite lovely. Also on Rachel's website, you can buy her book and find out about her spiritual center, SpiritsHome. By the way, I had mentioned in the interview that I was two-thirds through Rachel's book. It didn't take me long to finish and I highly recommend it. 

This is the third excerpt from a longer show (Episode 121) with Rachel, her sister Anita Hollander, and their mom, Iris November, three remarkable women who are creative and good-humored, as well as extraordinarily candid about how they've dealt with devastating loss.

This is Kate Jones. Thank you for listening to Everyday Creation, available on YouTube and in podcast directories including Apple, Audible, iHeart and Spotify.

Chapters

• 0:00 Intro begins
• 0:34 How Rachel's book came about
• 4:58 Despite the topic, it's not depressing
• 5:20 Listen on for the best question ever
• 9:18 The Rev. Rachel's "surthrival" guide
• 10:36 Living with loss and disability
• 11:43 And you have choices
• 12:36 Closing remarks

Transcript

00:00:06.480 --> 00:00:09.700
Hello, I'm Kate Jones here with an excerpt

00:00:09.760 --> 00:00:12.000
from a recent interview that I did with

00:00:12.000 --> 00:00:12.500
philanthropist

00:00:13.040 --> 00:00:15.300
and author Iris November

00:00:15.995 --> 00:00:17.455
and two of her four daughters:

00:00:17.915 --> 00:00:19.535
the Rev. Rachel Hollander,

00:00:19.995 --> 00:00:22.495
also an author, and Anita Hollander,

00:00:22.955 --> 00:00:24.655
an actress and composer.

00:00:25.195 --> 00:00:27.775
This short episode focuses on Rachel,

00:00:28.420 --> 00:00:31.480
whose book, "From There to Here: An Insider's

00:00:31.620 --> 00:00:33.400
Guide to Navigating the Darkness,"

00:00:33.860 --> 00:00:35.640
came out in 2021.

00:00:36.260 --> 00:00:39.160
It's a captivating story about living with depression.

Kate:

00:00:40.100 --> 00:00:41.800
Anyway, Rachel. 

Rachel:

Yes.

Kate:

00:00:42.295 --> 00:00:43.595
"From There to Here,"

00:00:44.135 --> 00:00:44.955
I am

00:00:45.895 --> 00:00:47.435
two-thirds through.

00:00:47.815 --> 00:00:49.755
I love this book. 

Rachel:

Thank you.

Kate:

00:00:50.135 --> 00:00:50.635
So

00:00:51.015 --> 00:00:53.175
why don't you just start? Why did you

00:00:53.175 --> 00:00:53.915
write it?

Rachel:

00:00:54.690 --> 00:00:56.550
So the book was birthed

00:00:57.250 --> 00:00:58.230
right at COVID,

00:00:59.410 --> 00:01:01.090
but it was something that I'd been working

00:01:01.090 --> 00:01:02.390
on for seven years.

00:01:02.930 --> 00:01:05.110
I wanted to write a book about

00:01:05.570 --> 00:01:07.670
how I learned to live with depression,

00:01:08.505 --> 00:01:10.425
because that's the operative word, how to live

00:01:10.425 --> 00:01:13.225
with it, not suffer from it. I don't

00:01:13.225 --> 00:01:15.625
have it. I certainly don't own it, and

00:01:15.625 --> 00:01:18.025
it doesn't own me. It's a button for

00:01:18.025 --> 00:01:20.025
me when people say, "I suffer from depression."

00:01:20.025 --> 00:01:22.190
I'm like, you don't have to. You can

00:01:22.190 --> 00:01:22.690
struggle.

00:01:23.390 --> 00:01:24.290
You can wrestle,

00:01:25.390 --> 00:01:27.710
and you live with it every day. So

00:01:27.710 --> 00:01:30.290
I started thinking, I want to write this book,

00:01:30.350 --> 00:01:32.930
and then it just became this big behemoth,

00:01:33.550 --> 00:01:34.370
"the BOOK."

00:01:34.955 --> 00:01:36.635
And so I was like, I can't do

00:01:36.635 --> 00:01:38.495
it. And my wonderful,

00:01:39.675 --> 00:01:42.395
beloved friend, Joanie, said to me, "Do me

00:01:42.395 --> 00:01:42.975
a favor.

00:01:43.435 --> 00:01:45.595
Write me two pages on what it feels

00:01:45.595 --> 00:01:47.100
like when you wake up in the morning.

00:01:47.660 --> 00:01:49.580
I said, okay. So I did that. I

00:01:49.580 --> 00:01:51.500
sent it to her. She goes, "Great. Write

00:01:51.500 --> 00:01:54.640
two pages on what's your best coping mechanism."

00:01:55.180 --> 00:01:57.120
Like, okay. So I did that. She goes,

00:01:57.180 --> 00:01:58.860
"Now write me two or three pages, a

00:01:58.860 --> 00:02:00.080
story from your childhood."

00:02:00.785 --> 00:02:02.305
And I said, okay. And I did that,

00:02:02.305 --> 00:02:03.925
and she said, "This is your book.

00:02:04.465 --> 00:02:05.525
Just start writing

00:02:06.305 --> 00:02:07.125
short pieces.

00:02:07.585 --> 00:02:09.265
What's it like when you feel like you

00:02:09.265 --> 00:02:10.785
can't get out of bed? What's a good

00:02:10.785 --> 00:02:11.525
day like?

00:02:11.825 --> 00:02:13.445
And then throw in some memoir,

00:02:13.825 --> 00:02:14.885
childhood stories,

00:02:15.400 --> 00:02:17.400
stories of going to Italy, stories of 

00:02:17.480 --> 00:02:18.700
doing the Grand Canyon,

00:02:19.240 --> 00:02:20.220
people you miss,

00:02:20.760 --> 00:02:22.760
people that are gone from your life that

00:02:22.760 --> 00:02:25.080
are precious to you. Just start writing two

00:02:25.080 --> 00:02:27.575
to three pages each. Keep it short." So

00:02:27.575 --> 00:02:29.335
over the course of about seven years, I

00:02:29.335 --> 00:02:31.495
just started doing this and then collecting them,

00:02:31.495 --> 00:02:33.035
and then I would send them to her.

00:02:33.575 --> 00:02:34.395
And she

00:02:34.695 --> 00:02:35.515
would sort of

00:02:35.815 --> 00:02:37.115
put them in an order

00:02:37.415 --> 00:02:38.955
or section them off.

00:02:39.730 --> 00:02:41.170
And then at some point, I was like,

00:02:41.170 --> 00:02:42.070
I have to stop.

00:02:42.530 --> 00:02:44.530
I have to stop writing because I've got

00:02:44.530 --> 00:02:45.430
all this stuff.

00:02:45.810 --> 00:02:48.450
And so that's when I found medium.com,

00:02:48.450 --> 00:02:51.010
which is this excellent website. It's like YouTube

00:02:51.010 --> 00:02:51.750
for writers.

00:02:52.095 --> 00:02:53.935
And so you can publish whatever you want

00:02:53.935 --> 00:02:55.535
there. So I thought, all right, I'm gonna put

00:02:55.535 --> 00:02:57.615
a cap on the book. That's it. That's

00:02:57.615 --> 00:02:59.535
what goes in the book. Then I can

00:02:59.535 --> 00:03:02.495
just keep writing whatever comes up. And with

00:03:02.495 --> 00:03:03.555
the help of Joanie

00:03:03.935 --> 00:03:06.175
and the wonderful Dina Rubin, who was my

00:03:06.175 --> 00:03:06.675
editor,

00:03:07.010 --> 00:03:07.910
and the magnificent

00:03:08.530 --> 00:03:10.710
Victoria Price, who designed the cover,

00:03:11.170 --> 00:03:13.250
helped me choose the font, which I call

00:03:13.250 --> 00:03:15.730
mommy font, because I picked a font that

00:03:15.730 --> 00:03:18.070
my mom could read. 

Iris:

Thank you. Thank you.

Rachel:

00:03:18.450 --> 00:03:20.575
I didn't like Times New Roman. I wanted

00:03:20.575 --> 00:03:23.055
something a little prettier and readable, so we

00:03:23.055 --> 00:03:25.135
went with mommy font. Victoria is a published

00:03:25.135 --> 00:03:26.895
author, and I asked her, maybe I should

00:03:26.895 --> 00:03:28.735
send it to publishers. And she said, "They're

00:03:28.735 --> 00:03:30.415
gonna want to make changes." And I said, okay,

00:03:30.415 --> 00:03:32.670
then no. Let's self-publish. So we went

00:03:32.670 --> 00:03:34.590
to 48 Hour Books. Great company. If

00:03:34.590 --> 00:03:36.290
you're writing a book, use them.

00:03:36.750 --> 00:03:38.770
And then the book came.

00:03:39.230 --> 00:03:40.910
Like, it was birthed, and I was holding

00:03:40.910 --> 00:03:42.670
it in my hand. And it was like,

00:03:42.670 --> 00:03:44.450
here it is. Here's my baby.

00:03:44.785 --> 00:03:46.725
And then the strangest thing happened.

00:03:48.385 --> 00:03:50.645
The boxes of books arrived at my apartment,

00:03:50.865 --> 00:03:52.625
and I had a list of people to

00:03:52.625 --> 00:03:53.925
send them to. And

00:03:54.225 --> 00:03:56.005
all of a sudden, I started crying.

00:03:57.090 --> 00:03:58.770
And I was like, wait. What's going on?

00:03:58.770 --> 00:04:00.630
And so I stepped away from the table,

00:04:01.490 --> 00:04:03.330
and I kind of curled up on my bed.

00:04:03.330 --> 00:04:04.930
And at that time, I had my beloved

00:04:04.930 --> 00:04:06.070
Maddie, my companion

00:04:06.450 --> 00:04:06.950
pup.

00:04:07.490 --> 00:04:09.110
And I was like, why am I crying?

00:04:10.175 --> 00:04:12.755
And I realized that there was a little

00:04:12.815 --> 00:04:14.115
tiny part of me,

00:04:14.495 --> 00:04:16.355
the little 10-year-old Rachel

00:04:18.095 --> 00:04:20.595
thought that once this was out,

00:04:20.975 --> 00:04:22.470
the depression would be gone.

00:04:22.950 --> 00:04:25.030
I didn't think it, but a little part

00:04:25.030 --> 00:04:26.950
of me thought that once the book's published,

00:04:26.950 --> 00:04:29.830
then I'm better. I'm done. It's over. You

00:04:29.830 --> 00:04:30.970
know? And it wasn't

00:04:31.430 --> 00:04:32.950
even as I was packing the books, it

00:04:32.950 --> 00:04:34.790
was like that stuff was still there, and

00:04:34.790 --> 00:04:35.450
I thought,

00:04:36.070 --> 00:04:37.850
well, that's why you wrote the book, Rachel,

00:04:39.325 --> 00:04:41.985
because you're living with it. It's the worst

00:04:42.045 --> 00:04:42.545
roommate

00:04:43.085 --> 00:04:43.585
ever.

00:04:44.285 --> 00:04:47.085
Doesn't do laundry, leaves dishes in the sink,

00:04:47.085 --> 00:04:49.005
lays on the couch playing games on her

00:04:49.005 --> 00:04:51.345
phone all day. Worst roommate.

00:04:52.040 --> 00:04:53.500
However, it's my roommate,

00:04:53.960 --> 00:04:54.460
so

00:04:54.840 --> 00:04:56.040
I get to learn how to live with

00:04:56.040 --> 00:04:57.960
it. That was the big lesson. Now the

00:04:57.960 --> 00:05:00.680
book is 4 years old and still doing

00:05:00.680 --> 00:05:02.840
quite well just on my own, just getting

00:05:02.840 --> 00:05:03.660
it out there.

Kate:

00:05:04.055 --> 00:05:04.875
It's a beautiful

00:05:05.415 --> 00:05:05.995
book and

00:05:06.535 --> 00:05:07.675
not depressing.

00:05:08.215 --> 00:05:10.795
There are some tough things in it,

00:05:11.255 --> 00:05:11.915
of course,

00:05:12.615 --> 00:05:13.115
and

00:05:13.655 --> 00:05:14.475
it's also

00:05:15.415 --> 00:05:15.915
funny.

00:05:16.935 --> 00:05:18.155
You have a really

00:05:18.535 --> 00:05:19.515
good way

00:05:20.930 --> 00:05:23.410
of putting things, and there's a lot of

00:05:23.410 --> 00:05:25.670
spirituality in it. Love that.

00:05:26.530 --> 00:05:29.490
So I want to talk about specific places that

00:05:29.490 --> 00:05:32.230
I had marked. On page 103, 

00:05:33.255 --> 00:05:35.115
you were asked a question:

00:05:35.575 --> 00:05:36.475
"So, Rachel,

00:05:36.855 --> 00:05:39.335
how do you fill your days?" 

Rachel:

00:05:39.335 --> 00:05:39.835
Oh, that question.

00:05:40.535 --> 00:05:43.015
So I've been living in Alaska and had

00:05:43.015 --> 00:05:45.895
not planned to leave, and then I had

00:05:45.895 --> 00:05:48.470
to leave. My life changed, and it was

00:05:48.470 --> 00:05:50.170
no longer a place I could be.

00:05:50.710 --> 00:05:52.630
So Maddie and I got in the car,

00:05:52.630 --> 00:05:55.750
and we drove from Anchorage to Ithaca, New

00:05:55.750 --> 00:05:58.490
York. We were gonna move to Eugene, Oregon.

00:05:58.790 --> 00:06:01.270
And Joanie, my friend Joanie said, "Why are

00:06:01.270 --> 00:06:03.335
you moving to Eugene?" And I said it

00:06:03.335 --> 00:06:05.575
sounds like a pretty place. And Joanie said,

00:06:05.575 --> 00:06:07.495
"Do you know anyone there?" And I said

00:06:07.495 --> 00:06:09.095
no. And she goes, "Yeah, you're moving to

00:06:09.095 --> 00:06:09.595
Ithaca."

00:06:10.855 --> 00:06:12.455
Cause I was not in a good space.

00:06:12.455 --> 00:06:14.055
And she was like, "If you move somewhere

00:06:14.055 --> 00:06:15.415
where you don't know anyone, we're going to

00:06:15.415 --> 00:06:17.190
lose you." 

Kate:

00:06:17.730 --> 00:06:18.230
What an amazing friend she has been.

Rachel:

00:06:18.530 --> 00:06:21.590
Oh, she's astounding.

Kate: 

00:06:22.050 --> 00:06:24.930
Yes, Joanie, my goodness. She's brilliant. And she knows

00:06:24.930 --> 00:06:27.990
you so well. 

Rachel:

00:06:28.050 --> 00:06:30.550
Yeah. I'm blessed with wonderful friends, wonderful lifelong friends.

00:06:31.035 --> 00:06:32.415
So we moved to Ithaca,

00:06:32.795 --> 00:06:34.555
and I was so lost. And I kept

00:06:34.555 --> 00:06:36.635
saying I can't find my feet. Like, I

00:06:36.635 --> 00:06:39.215
can't find my feet. There was no grounding

00:06:39.275 --> 00:06:41.355
in my life. And so after 10 months

00:06:41.355 --> 00:06:43.135
in Ithaca, I moved to Cleveland,

00:06:43.490 --> 00:06:45.010
where I said I would never come back

00:06:45.010 --> 00:06:47.410
to. I moved home.

Kate: 

00:06:47.410 --> 00:06:48.550
I wasn't ever planning to come back to Cleveland either.

Rachel:

00:06:49.490 --> 00:06:52.310
Never come back, yeah. And I wasn't employed,

00:06:52.370 --> 00:06:54.930
and I didn't have a college degree, and

00:06:54.930 --> 00:06:57.650
I didn't have direction, and I was really

00:06:57.650 --> 00:06:59.385
in a dangerous space.

00:06:59.945 --> 00:07:02.685
And my mom, doing her philanthropy, kept saying,

00:07:02.825 --> 00:07:04.585
"I need a plus-one to this event.

00:07:04.585 --> 00:07:06.025
I need a plus-one to this event."

00:07:06.025 --> 00:07:08.185
So I started going to all these events

00:07:08.185 --> 00:07:10.105
with her, and I don't know that she

00:07:10.105 --> 00:07:12.585
knows this, but I would lie when people

00:07:12.585 --> 00:07:14.685
would ask me, "What do you do?"

00:07:15.120 --> 00:07:16.340
I hate that question.

00:07:16.720 --> 00:07:18.400
Hate it. And so they'd say, "So, what

00:07:18.400 --> 00:07:19.600
do you do?" And I would be, oh,

00:07:19.600 --> 00:07:22.100
I'm a freelance photographer for National Geographic.

00:07:22.720 --> 00:07:24.340
I counsel young children.

00:07:24.880 --> 00:07:27.220
I was making up all these things that I did.

Kate:

00:07:27.665 --> 00:07:29.205
Sounds good!

Rachel:

00:07:29.505 --> 00:07:31.265
I didn't wanna say, what do I do?

00:07:31.585 --> 00:07:33.665
I spend hours on my couch crying. What

00:07:33.665 --> 00:07:35.505
do you do? You know? Like, what was

00:07:35.505 --> 00:07:36.485
I gonna say?

00:07:36.945 --> 00:07:38.625
And so we went to this event for

00:07:38.625 --> 00:07:40.545
the Centers for Family and Children. My mom

00:07:40.545 --> 00:07:41.845
was donating a patio

00:07:42.620 --> 00:07:44.780
or a courtyard. 

Iris:

00:07:44.780 --> 00:07:45.280
Yeah. The courtyard. It's lovely.

Rachel:

00:07:45.660 --> 00:07:47.840
And I was standing there dressed nicely,

00:07:48.540 --> 00:07:51.100
dreading the question "So, Rachel, what do you

00:07:51.100 --> 00:07:53.120
do?" And Lee Fisher,

00:07:53.740 --> 00:07:56.560
famous Ohioan and wonderful gentleman,

00:07:57.255 --> 00:07:58.775
my mom knows his wife, and so she

00:07:58.775 --> 00:08:00.215
was like, "I wanna introduce you to Peggy

00:08:00.215 --> 00:08:01.975
and Lee." I was like, oh God. Here

00:08:01.975 --> 00:08:03.495
we go. Now I'm gonna embarrass myself in

00:08:03.495 --> 00:08:04.475
front of Lee Fisher.

00:08:05.015 --> 00:08:06.935
And he took my hand in both of

00:08:06.935 --> 00:08:08.475
his hands, and he said,

00:08:09.015 --> 00:08:09.835
"So, Rachel,

00:08:10.510 --> 00:08:12.050
how do you fill your days?"

00:08:13.630 --> 00:08:15.010
And I started crying.

00:08:15.710 --> 00:08:17.170
I just started crying.

00:08:17.550 --> 00:08:19.390
Oh my God. And I said, that is

00:08:19.390 --> 00:08:22.110
the best question I've ever been asked. And

00:08:22.110 --> 00:08:23.330
I said, I write.

00:08:23.735 --> 00:08:25.895
I play music, I sing, I walk my

00:08:25.895 --> 00:08:26.395
dog,

00:08:27.015 --> 00:08:28.075
I talk to friends,

00:08:29.255 --> 00:08:31.035
I plan, I make plans.

00:08:31.495 --> 00:08:33.335
Suddenly, I had a list of answers to

00:08:33.335 --> 00:08:35.575
that question where "What do you do?" I

00:08:35.575 --> 00:08:36.795
had no answers,

00:08:37.520 --> 00:08:40.240
And that changed everything. 

Iris:

00:08:40.240 --> 00:08:43.380
That's why he's the dean of Baldwin Wallace. 

Iris and Rachel:

00:08:43.440 --> 00:08:46.820
Yes. He's a wonderful man. Just wonderful. 

Kate:

And the best question ever.

Rachel:

00:08:47.600 --> 00:08:49.200
Yeah. And so when the book came out,

00:08:49.200 --> 00:08:51.040
all these people said, "I'm gonna start using

00:08:51.040 --> 00:08:53.085
that. So now there's, like, tons of people

00:08:53.145 --> 00:08:54.205
all over the country

00:08:54.585 --> 00:08:56.585
and some in the world who are now

00:08:56.585 --> 00:08:58.185
saying, "How do you fill your days?" instead

00:08:58.185 --> 00:08:59.385
of "What do you do?" And I love

00:08:59.385 --> 00:09:01.465
that legacy. And I should clarify, when you

00:09:01.465 --> 00:09:03.065
said that the book is somewhat spiritual, I

00:09:03.065 --> 00:09:04.605
usually go by Reverend Rachel.

00:09:04.920 --> 00:09:08.040
I'm an InterFaith/InterSpiritual minister. And so that

00:09:08.040 --> 00:09:09.900
is a big part of my life.

Kate:

00:09:10.440 --> 00:09:10.940
Absolutely.

00:09:11.800 --> 00:09:12.300
It's

00:09:13.080 --> 00:09:14.860
spiritual, though. It's not

00:09:16.680 --> 00:09:17.180
religious.

Rachel:

00:09:17.595 --> 00:09:19.115
I spend a lot of time saying, I'm

00:09:19.115 --> 00:09:20.795
not that kind of minister. I say I'm

00:09:20.795 --> 00:09:23.035
Reverend Rachel. Don't worry. I'm not that kind

00:09:23.035 --> 00:09:25.355
of minister. 

Kate:

00:09:25.355 --> 00:09:28.095
Is there anything more you want to say about living with depression?

Rachel:

00:09:28.875 --> 00:09:30.395
So when I wrote the book, I wanted

00:09:30.395 --> 00:09:32.370
it to be a user's guide. I wanted

00:09:32.370 --> 00:09:34.330
it to be a manual, not something you

00:09:34.330 --> 00:09:35.790
read and then put on the shelf.

00:09:36.250 --> 00:09:38.490
Keep it handy. Use it. Write notes in

00:09:38.490 --> 00:09:40.830
it. It's literally a user's guide

00:09:41.690 --> 00:09:44.410
to surviving, to "surthriving," as I like

00:09:44.410 --> 00:09:45.710
to say, the word "surthrival."

00:09:48.815 --> 00:09:52.275
It's important to be kind to ourselves.

00:09:52.895 --> 00:09:54.415
There have been moments, I mean, there's still

00:09:54.415 --> 00:09:56.895
moments, obviously, because I live with it, where

00:09:56.895 --> 00:09:59.455
I go into the darkness, and my mom

00:09:59.455 --> 00:10:01.315
will say, "Read your book.

00:10:01.910 --> 00:10:03.050
Go read your book."

00:10:03.510 --> 00:10:04.950
And so I do. I pick it up.

00:10:04.950 --> 00:10:06.630
I open it to a random page, and

00:10:06.630 --> 00:10:07.690
I'm like, right.

00:10:08.150 --> 00:10:09.690
It's important to remember

00:10:10.070 --> 00:10:12.010
that we live with a lot,

00:10:13.430 --> 00:10:14.170
and not

00:10:14.585 --> 00:10:16.905
one thing needs to knock us down. My

00:10:16.905 --> 00:10:19.405
sister Anita lived with cancer

00:10:19.945 --> 00:10:20.445
and

00:10:20.985 --> 00:10:23.565
"conquered" it. I'm putting that in air quotes.

00:10:23.865 --> 00:10:26.345
There are people who live with diabetes. There

00:10:26.345 --> 00:10:29.385
are people who live with grief. We live

00:10:29.385 --> 00:10:32.870
with so much, especially these days, we're living

00:10:32.870 --> 00:10:33.690
with chaos.

00:10:35.350 --> 00:10:37.910
If we let all of that wash over

00:10:37.910 --> 00:10:39.930
us like a tsunami and go down,

00:10:40.550 --> 00:10:41.610
we won't survive.

Iris:

00:10:42.215 --> 00:10:44.475
I was just going to say we live with loss.

00:10:44.855 --> 00:10:45.355
Friends,

00:10:45.815 --> 00:10:46.315
husbands,

00:10:46.775 --> 00:10:47.275
mothers,

00:10:47.815 --> 00:10:50.235
fathers, that's part of everybody's

00:10:51.255 --> 00:10:52.395
life. 

Kate:

00:10:53.095 --> 00:10:54.635
Yes. Part of the human existence,

00:10:55.175 --> 00:10:56.555
that we're here temporarily.

Iris:

Yes.

Anita:

00:10:57.335 --> 00:11:00.540
A little boy in Alabama asked me

00:11:01.640 --> 00:11:03.500
at the end of the show down there.

00:11:03.960 --> 00:11:05.340
Little boy said,

00:11:05.720 --> 00:11:06.780
"How many people

00:11:07.480 --> 00:11:08.620
die of disability?"

00:11:09.640 --> 00:11:12.040
And so I talked to him gently about

00:11:12.040 --> 00:11:15.955
how everybody on the stage lives with disability.

00:11:16.415 --> 00:11:17.795
Everybody's gonna die,

00:11:18.175 --> 00:11:20.435
but we are not dying of our disability.

00:11:20.575 --> 00:11:23.155
We're living with disability, which is exactly

00:11:23.615 --> 00:11:26.175
what Rachel is saying. And this happened just

00:11:26.175 --> 00:11:28.675
a few days ago when this boy

00:11:29.200 --> 00:11:31.280
was very concerned about this. And I was

00:11:31.280 --> 00:11:33.520
like, we don't die of a disability. We

00:11:33.520 --> 00:11:36.800
live with a disability. 

Iris:

00:11:36.800 --> 00:11:38.100
Perfect answer. I saw this when I was watching.

00:11:38.560 --> 00:11:39.920
And first of all, that he had the

00:11:39.920 --> 00:11:42.320
courage to ask that question, but that you

00:11:42.320 --> 00:11:44.915
answered it in such a clear way

00:11:45.775 --> 00:11:48.035
that I'm sure that he left feeling

00:11:48.335 --> 00:11:48.835
uplifted.

Rachel:

00:11:49.695 --> 00:11:52.035
Also, the thing about living with is

00:11:52.415 --> 00:11:53.395
you have choices.

00:11:53.935 --> 00:11:56.115
If you live with depression, you have choices

00:11:56.335 --> 00:11:58.020
all the time. There's a part in the

00:11:58.020 --> 00:12:00.260
book we talked about the summit, this meeting

00:12:00.260 --> 00:12:02.900
I had in meditation with God and my

00:12:02.900 --> 00:12:04.120
dad who had passed.

00:12:04.500 --> 00:12:06.580
And the discussion was, you know, are you

00:12:06.580 --> 00:12:07.880
staying or are you going?

00:12:09.220 --> 00:12:09.720
And

00:12:10.795 --> 00:12:12.555
what I learned was if you stay, you

00:12:12.555 --> 00:12:13.295
have choices.

00:12:14.075 --> 00:12:15.835
If you go, that's the last choice you

00:12:15.835 --> 00:12:16.335
make.

00:12:18.795 --> 00:12:21.515
Okay. So as long as we're living with,

00:12:21.755 --> 00:12:24.715
even when we're struggling and wrestling and boy

00:12:24.715 --> 00:12:25.615
do I wrestle.

00:12:26.060 --> 00:12:28.620
I wrestle with depression a lot. I jokingly

00:12:28.620 --> 00:12:30.700
call myself Jacob because, you know, Jacob wrestling

00:12:30.700 --> 00:12:32.620
with the angel and all that stuff in

00:12:32.620 --> 00:12:34.380
the Hebrew Bible, but I wrestle with it

00:12:34.380 --> 00:12:36.400
all the time. I get mad at it.

00:12:36.780 --> 00:12:38.000
I have temper tantrums,

00:12:39.115 --> 00:12:40.495
and I'm still here.

00:12:40.955 --> 00:12:41.935
I'm still choosing.

Kate:

00:12:42.395 --> 00:12:44.635
For more, please check out the other five

00:12:44.635 --> 00:12:47.035
excerpts or if you have the time, the

00:12:47.035 --> 00:12:47.935
full episode.

00:12:48.555 --> 00:12:50.415
It's quite an extraordinary

00:12:50.795 --> 00:12:51.295
conversation.

00:12:52.550 --> 00:12:55.290
Thank you for listening to Everyday Creation.