00:00:21.640 --> 00:00:24.700
Hello, and welcome to Everyday Creation,
00:00:25.285 --> 00:00:28.265
a show about lifting our vibes for ourselves
00:00:28.565 --> 00:00:29.385
and the world.
00:00:29.925 --> 00:00:32.905
I'm Kate Jones, here with collage artist
00:00:33.460 --> 00:00:34.600
Gretchen Bierbaum,
00:00:35.300 --> 00:00:39.400
president and founder of the National Collage Society.
00:00:40.660 --> 00:00:42.040
Gretchen is the author
00:00:42.535 --> 00:00:44.395
of “Collage in all Dimensions,”
00:00:45.095 --> 00:00:46.395
published in 2005,
00:00:47.495 --> 00:00:49.915
and “Creating Collage in all Dimensions —
00:00:50.450 --> 00:00:53.510
Techniques to Alter and Transfer Images,”
00:00:53.970 --> 00:00:56.070
an ebook published in 2010.
00:00:57.010 --> 00:00:58.630
They're available on nationalcollage.com.
00:01:00.675 --> 00:01:01.735
In this episode,
00:01:02.195 --> 00:01:04.835
Gretchen talks about the history of collage up
00:01:04.835 --> 00:01:05.975
to the present time,
00:01:06.355 --> 00:01:08.215
a little about her own history,
00:01:08.970 --> 00:01:10.430
her submarine commission,
00:01:10.810 --> 00:01:11.870
and much more,
00:01:12.250 --> 00:01:15.470
including the illuminating year she spent in Iran.
00:01:16.125 --> 00:01:19.425
This interview begins with Gretchen answering my question
00:01:19.725 --> 00:01:22.705
about when she started the National Collage Society
00:01:23.325 --> 00:01:24.145
and why.
Gretchen:
00:01:24.520 --> 00:01:25.180
It was
00:01:26.120 --> 00:01:26.620
1982,
00:01:27.560 --> 00:01:28.060
and
00:01:28.360 --> 00:01:28.940
a lot
00:01:29.320 --> 00:01:30.380
of local artists
00:01:31.000 --> 00:01:33.100
were, mostly the ones I knew, were watercolorists.
00:01:34.115 --> 00:01:36.755
And then, I was taking private lessons with
00:01:36.755 --> 00:01:38.455
a really famous guy in Cleveland
00:01:38.755 --> 00:01:40.455
who one day started gluing
00:01:41.210 --> 00:01:43.610
some newsprint and some other papers onto the
00:01:43.610 --> 00:01:45.530
surface of a watercolor painting and it was
00:01:45.530 --> 00:01:47.370
one of those light bulb moments for me,
00:01:47.370 --> 00:01:48.110
and I went ah-ha
00:01:49.045 --> 00:01:51.605
and I started making collage. But then I
00:01:51.605 --> 00:01:53.465
looked around and any,
00:01:54.165 --> 00:01:56.505
any type of competition or
00:01:57.710 --> 00:02:00.610
exhibit did not have a category for collage
00:02:00.670 --> 00:02:02.430
and they wouldn't allow us in any of
00:02:02.430 --> 00:02:03.810
the watercolor societies.
Kate:
00:02:04.350 --> 00:02:04.850
Really?
Gretchen:
00:02:05.310 --> 00:02:06.930
Well, we're just banned.
00:02:07.395 --> 00:02:07.895
And
00:02:08.675 --> 00:02:10.455
so I decided, well,
00:02:10.755 --> 00:02:12.435
I'm going to start a collage society. And
00:02:12.435 --> 00:02:14.355
I met the guy that started the American
00:02:14.355 --> 00:02:16.390
Watercolor Society in New York City. He was
00:02:16.390 --> 00:02:17.210
in Ohio.
00:02:18.470 --> 00:02:19.750
And I said to him, I think I'm
00:02:19.750 --> 00:02:21.030
going to do this. He said, “Well, do
00:02:21.030 --> 00:02:22.730
it before somebody else does.”
00:02:23.845 --> 00:02:26.085
So the National Collage Society is actually
00:02:26.085 --> 00:02:26.745
the first
00:02:27.845 --> 00:02:28.345
organized
00:02:28.725 --> 00:02:31.220
group in this country and now there's just
00:02:31.220 --> 00:02:33.700
dozens of them everywhere. We started out with
00:02:33.700 --> 00:02:35.540
regional groups, and they've all gone off on
00:02:35.540 --> 00:02:38.040
their own and become independent and successful.
Kate:
00:02:38.655 --> 00:02:40.975
I read that you promote the advancement of
00:02:40.975 --> 00:02:43.235
collage as a major art medium,
00:02:43.855 --> 00:02:45.955
and you assist in educating
00:02:46.335 --> 00:02:46.995
the public.
Gretchen:
00:02:47.380 --> 00:02:49.720
Yes. Our mission is education,
00:02:50.500 --> 00:02:51.240
art education
00:02:51.620 --> 00:02:52.600
through exhibits,
00:02:53.540 --> 00:02:54.040
workshops,
00:02:54.340 --> 00:02:55.560
lectures, publications —
00:02:56.725 --> 00:02:58.825
any way we can reach the public.
Kate:
00:02:59.525 --> 00:03:02.425
Great. And you have an annual juried event?
Gretchen:
00:03:02.645 --> 00:03:05.170
Well, that's the biggest event.
00:03:05.410 --> 00:03:07.030
It's online for a year.
Kate:
00:03:07.410 --> 00:03:10.290
Oh, okay. So, basically, you have something up
00:03:10.290 --> 00:03:12.790
all year long then.
Gretchen:
Definitely.
Kate:
00:03:13.575 --> 00:03:16.615
Wow. Okay. So you, so people can go
00:03:16.615 --> 00:03:20.155
to it from the National Collage Society's website.
Gretchen:
00:03:20.690 --> 00:03:21.190
Right.
00:03:21.810 --> 00:03:22.310
Nationalcollage.com.
Kate:
00:03:23.890 --> 00:03:26.230
Incredible work by artists from around
00:03:26.530 --> 00:03:28.870
the U.S. and internationally.
Gretchen:
00:03:29.465 --> 00:03:31.305
Well, I hire the best jury you can
00:03:31.305 --> 00:03:34.185
find. It's all academically based, and we always
00:03:34.185 --> 00:03:35.085
have a professor
00:03:36.665 --> 00:03:38.045
from a major university
00:03:38.425 --> 00:03:38.925
and
00:03:39.370 --> 00:03:40.910
one museum curator
00:03:41.450 --> 00:03:44.110
and one working artist who's been very accomplished.
00:03:44.250 --> 00:03:45.850
And then we have a 4th one as
00:03:45.850 --> 00:03:46.510
a judge.
Kate:
00:03:47.225 --> 00:03:49.225
Is it a big-deal
00:03:49.225 --> 00:03:51.325
event to get into?
Gretchen:
00:03:52.745 --> 00:03:55.565
Well, yes. They're usually only professional artists
00:03:55.890 --> 00:03:58.050
who are really accomplished that can get by
00:03:58.050 --> 00:04:00.070
the jury to be in the show, and
00:04:00.530 --> 00:04:02.310
what it demonstrates is that
00:04:03.165 --> 00:04:03.665
contemporary
00:04:03.965 --> 00:04:06.785
art has many, many mixed media artists
00:04:07.405 --> 00:04:09.585
now, a lot more than the last century.
Kate:
00:04:10.365 --> 00:04:12.705
Ah, that's very interesting.
00:04:13.070 --> 00:04:14.850
So back in the day when
00:04:15.310 --> 00:04:16.530
you couldn't even get in …
Gretchen:
00:04:17.390 --> 00:04:19.550
Yeah. They wouldn't allow us in shows.
Kate:
00:04:19.550 --> 00:04:21.730
Yes. You wouldn't couldn't even get into shows.
00:04:22.105 --> 00:04:24.525
And now, you know, there are so many,
00:04:24.665 --> 00:04:26.365
so many artists doing this.
Gretchen:
00:04:26.985 --> 00:04:27.885
Right. And
00:04:29.430 --> 00:04:32.230
collage is an art historical term. It's just
00:04:32.230 --> 00:04:34.310
not something you throw around except it's been
00:04:34.310 --> 00:04:36.330
used generically for the wrong things.
00:04:37.415 --> 00:04:39.495
I was told I could never stop that,
00:04:39.495 --> 00:04:39.995
but …
Kate:
00:04:40.695 --> 00:04:42.135
What do you mean?
Gretchen:
00:04:42.935 --> 00:04:45.015
Oh, there were, there was some computer company
00:04:45.015 --> 00:04:46.795
called Collage back in
00:04:47.240 --> 00:04:48.300
in the eighties.
00:04:48.920 --> 00:04:51.080
I talked to the art history
00:04:51.080 --> 00:04:52.920
professor at the Cleveland Institute of Art. She
00:04:52.920 --> 00:04:54.520
said, “You can't stop that. It's like the
00:04:54.520 --> 00:04:56.460
word Kleenex.” I said, no, it isn’t!
00:04:57.915 --> 00:04:59.775
Mixed media has always been around,
00:05:00.155 --> 00:05:01.775
but that's kind of a loose term.
00:05:02.475 --> 00:05:05.340
All of collage is mixed media, but
00:05:05.340 --> 00:05:07.420
not all mixed media is collage because you
00:05:07.420 --> 00:05:08.940
can draw a picture with a pencil and
00:05:08.940 --> 00:05:11.360
then paint some watercolor over it. That's mixed
00:05:11.660 --> 00:05:12.160
media.
Kate:
00:05:12.620 --> 00:05:14.480
Oh, okay, but that's not collage.
Gretchen:
00:05:14.925 --> 00:05:17.325
No. The magic word is glue because collage
00:05:17.325 --> 00:05:21.085
is a French derived term from the verb
00:05:21.085 --> 00:05:23.185
coller, which means to glue or to paste.
Kate:
00:05:23.690 --> 00:05:24.430
Oh, okay.
00:05:24.890 --> 00:05:26.810
So would you talk about the history of
00:05:26.810 --> 00:05:27.310
collage?
Gretchen:
00:05:27.930 --> 00:05:30.030
Oh, sure. I'd love to talk about that.
00:05:30.090 --> 00:05:32.285
Collage was always
00:05:32.925 --> 00:05:33.585
an active
00:05:34.605 --> 00:05:36.925
craft for hundreds of years. Somebody just had
00:05:36.925 --> 00:05:39.245
a show in Scotland with 400 years of
00:05:39.245 --> 00:05:39.745
collage.
00:05:40.960 --> 00:05:43.120
And, you know, just all types of things.
00:05:43.120 --> 00:05:46.020
Sailors used to glue seashells together for their
00:05:46.720 --> 00:05:48.020
sweethearts and
00:05:49.585 --> 00:05:53.045
Victorian ladies made valentines with lace and
00:05:53.585 --> 00:05:54.325
different materials.
00:05:55.265 --> 00:05:57.605
So it's always been around, but to be
00:05:58.570 --> 00:06:00.430
described as a fine art,
00:06:01.050 --> 00:06:04.010
it had to take Picasso and Braque in
00:06:04.010 --> 00:06:06.750
1912 to start gluing things on their paintings.
Kate:
00:06:08.115 --> 00:06:11.315
Okay. So, so then what happened?
Gretchen:
00:06:11.315 --> 00:06:13.175
Then it became a fine art.
00:06:13.715 --> 00:06:16.340
And people still didn't understand it. Well, a
00:06:16.340 --> 00:06:18.740
museum wouldn't accept them at first. And
00:06:20.260 --> 00:06:22.500
they were in a studio together in southern
00:06:22.500 --> 00:06:23.000
France,
00:06:24.215 --> 00:06:25.895
and Braque had to go off to the war
00:06:25.895 --> 00:06:28.135
and had a terrible head injury. And Picasso
00:06:28.135 --> 00:06:30.475
was Spanish, didn't have to go to war.
00:06:31.470 --> 00:06:33.790
Braque was the intellectual, and I always
00:06:33.790 --> 00:06:35.950
give him credit for actually knowing what he
00:06:35.950 --> 00:06:38.030
was doing. Picasso was just playing around at
00:06:38.030 --> 00:06:40.130
the time.
Kate:
Everybody knows,
00:06:40.695 --> 00:06:43.595
Pablo Picasso, but how about Georges Braque?
Gretchen:
00:06:44.055 --> 00:06:45.655
Well, he was French and they
00:06:45.655 --> 00:06:47.575
had a studio in France, so all of
00:06:47.575 --> 00:06:49.515
the terms for collage are French.
Kate:
00:06:49.930 --> 00:06:50.430
Okay.
Gretchen:
00:06:51.530 --> 00:06:52.890
And that's one of the things I did
00:06:52.890 --> 00:06:55.690
with my book about contemporary collages, identify all
00:06:55.690 --> 00:06:56.430
those terms.
Kate:
00:06:57.015 --> 00:06:58.535
So that's the history of
00:06:58.935 --> 00:07:02.315
collage becoming a fine art.
00:07:02.615 --> 00:07:04.635
And, and your own history,
00:07:05.730 --> 00:07:07.650
how did you come to do what you
00:07:07.650 --> 00:07:08.150
do?
Gretchen:
00:07:08.690 --> 00:07:10.550
Well, I told you I was studying watercolor.
00:07:10.610 --> 00:07:12.690
I didn't have watercolor in my art degree
00:07:12.690 --> 00:07:13.190
program.
00:07:13.905 --> 00:07:15.825
You know watercolor had to come into its
00:07:15.825 --> 00:07:17.505
own also because it used to be just
00:07:17.505 --> 00:07:19.125
considered a sketching medium
00:07:19.745 --> 00:07:21.685
for all the other paint mediums, and
00:07:23.050 --> 00:07:23.550
watercolor
00:07:23.930 --> 00:07:26.330
just wasn't important. But now, if you frame
00:07:26.330 --> 00:07:28.970
a watercolor properly it will last longer than
00:07:28.970 --> 00:07:30.110
any oil painting.
Kate:
00:07:30.570 --> 00:07:31.070
Really?
Gretchen:
00:07:31.475 --> 00:07:33.475
So they were always looking, the archivists were
00:07:33.475 --> 00:07:36.135
always looking at things and still deciding watercolor
00:07:36.195 --> 00:07:37.415
was for sketching.
00:07:38.195 --> 00:07:40.160
But since I didn't have a class in
00:07:40.160 --> 00:07:42.300
it, I signed up for private tutor
00:07:43.160 --> 00:07:44.760
after I graduated and
00:07:45.560 --> 00:07:47.420
for 6 years studied watercolor.
00:07:49.175 --> 00:07:51.335
And I told you he started gluing thing
00:07:51.415 --> 00:07:53.095
things on the surface of one of his
00:07:53.095 --> 00:07:55.495
paintings in one class. And I told
00:07:55.495 --> 00:07:57.115
you that was my light bulb moment.
00:07:57.570 --> 00:07:59.490
And I just knew I had to
00:07:59.490 --> 00:08:00.230
do that.
00:08:01.010 --> 00:08:02.450
And this is like any other time you
00:08:02.450 --> 00:08:04.530
study with someone, your work looks like theirs,
00:08:04.530 --> 00:08:05.030
but
00:08:05.945 --> 00:08:07.565
I took it in a whole new direction
00:08:07.625 --> 00:08:08.285
and started
00:08:08.745 --> 00:08:11.065
doing commercial, I call it commercial art because
00:08:11.065 --> 00:08:12.125
I would have commissions
00:08:13.040 --> 00:08:14.420
and I would do cityscapes
00:08:14.960 --> 00:08:16.500
using a local newspaper
00:08:17.760 --> 00:08:18.900
with their logotype
00:08:20.640 --> 00:08:22.100
and articles. And
00:08:22.905 --> 00:08:24.205
I did a bicentennial
00:08:24.665 --> 00:08:26.845
collage for Cleveland and one for Hudson,
00:08:28.105 --> 00:08:29.325
and
00:08:30.380 --> 00:08:32.640
my favorite one is in a nuclear submarine.
00:08:33.420 --> 00:08:36.140
The Navy League hired me to do a
00:08:36.140 --> 00:08:38.380
collage of the home city when the submarine
00:08:38.380 --> 00:08:39.120
was commissioned.
00:08:39.935 --> 00:08:42.735
Every boat has a home base. And
00:08:42.735 --> 00:08:44.995
in the Navy they say that when they
00:08:46.015 --> 00:08:47.695
leave the Navy they can go back to
00:08:47.695 --> 00:08:50.030
their home, and have a job.
00:08:50.030 --> 00:08:52.270
So I'm wondering if there's any sailors in
00:08:52.270 --> 00:08:55.170
Akron from that Sea Wolf series,
00:08:55.605 --> 00:08:57.925
but the submarine's still out there floating around
00:08:57.925 --> 00:09:00.245
somewhere with my painting in the commander's dining
00:09:00.245 --> 00:09:02.645
room.
Kate:
Oh, that's so cool. What did
00:09:02.645 --> 00:09:05.570
you do?
Gretchen:
Well, I …
00:09:05.870 --> 00:09:07.710
actually, it's not the name. The submarine is
00:09:07.710 --> 00:09:09.710
not named after Akron like most of them
00:09:09.710 --> 00:09:10.930
have a name or state,
00:09:11.470 --> 00:09:11.790
and,
00:09:13.315 --> 00:09:14.455
it's called Seawolf.
00:09:15.315 --> 00:09:18.275
And I did a collage of Akron, the
00:09:18.275 --> 00:09:18.775
downtown,
00:09:19.555 --> 00:09:22.215
and the canal coming forward, to the foreground,
00:09:22.700 --> 00:09:24.800
and I put the submarine in the canal.
Kate:
00:09:27.260 --> 00:09:29.820
Wow. It never actually was in the canal, though!
Gretchen:
00:09:29.820 --> 00:09:30.320
But we don’t see it. It gurgles under a parking garage somewhere.
Kate:
00:09:39.340 --> 00:09:42.240
So these were, these were sailors from
00:09:42.700 --> 00:09:43.760
the Akron area?
Gretchen:
00:09:44.380 --> 00:09:46.140
No. No. They're from all over but
00:09:46.140 --> 00:09:49.225
because Akron hosted the commissioning. I
00:09:49.225 --> 00:09:51.725
was at the commissioning up in Groton, Connecticut,
00:09:51.785 --> 00:09:54.345
where the Electric Boat Company is. The
00:09:54.345 --> 00:09:56.870
Navy League took me up there to present
00:09:56.870 --> 00:09:59.370
my collage to the commander of the boat.
00:09:59.670 --> 00:10:01.190
It was the mayor of Akron that did
00:10:01.190 --> 00:10:02.250
that in a museum.
00:10:03.575 --> 00:10:05.895
And, the sailors then, of course, have gone
00:10:05.895 --> 00:10:07.675
on to other things probably, but,
00:10:09.095 --> 00:10:11.095
well, it's still, it was the fastest
00:10:11.095 --> 00:10:12.475
submarine we ever made.
00:10:14.410 --> 00:10:16.030
It’s still out there.
Kate:
Seawolf.
Gretchen:
00:10:16.570 --> 00:10:19.130
Seawolf series. I saw them building the
00:10:19.130 --> 00:10:20.030
next two.
00:10:20.805 --> 00:10:22.645
I got the tour of the Electric Boat
00:10:22.645 --> 00:10:25.205
Company. It's just so bizarre that they would
00:10:25.205 --> 00:10:26.965
invite an artist to do all that, but
00:10:26.965 --> 00:10:27.500
I just
00:10:28.060 --> 00:10:30.160
loved every minute of it.
Kate:
Wow.
00:10:31.180 --> 00:10:33.500
How did that come about? I mean, how
00:10:33.500 --> 00:10:34.800
did you get that commission?
Gretchen:
00:10:36.065 --> 00:10:37.445
You know, I don't remember.
00:10:38.225 --> 00:10:40.785
But what's weird, I was
00:10:40.785 --> 00:10:42.385
there and the commander of the boat came
00:10:42.385 --> 00:10:43.880
up. He was like 6 foot 4 and
00:10:43.880 --> 00:10:45.720
you think submarine that they're all going to be
00:10:45.720 --> 00:10:47.720
little people, but it was huge in there,
00:10:47.720 --> 00:10:49.340
20-foot ceilings in the
00:10:50.040 --> 00:10:52.115
in the missile room, and he came up and
00:10:52.115 --> 00:10:54.275
gave me a big hug from Washington, D.C.
00:10:54.275 --> 00:10:56.215
I said, okay, who do you know?
00:10:56.755 --> 00:10:59.490
It was … my high school boyfriend was
00:10:59.730 --> 00:11:00.230
undersecretary
00:11:00.690 --> 00:11:01.750
of defense and
00:11:02.130 --> 00:11:04.130
they were talking one day and the commander
00:11:04.130 --> 00:11:05.570
said, “Oh, we got some artist from
00:11:06.130 --> 00:11:09.190
Ohio that's doing a commission for us.” And he said,
00:11:09.715 --> 00:11:12.035
“Is her name Gretchen Bierbaum?” “Yeah, you
00:11:12.035 --> 00:11:12.775
know her?”
00:11:13.31e:5 --> 00:11:13.815
Jeez.
Kate:
00:11:14.355 --> 00:11:17.155
That is so funny.
Gretchen:
You
00:11:17.155 --> 00:11:19.220
live long enough, all this comes back around.
00:11:19.220 --> 00:11:19.720
Kate:
Right!
00:11:21.220 --> 00:11:23.060
So, anyway, you referenced your,
00:11:24.020 --> 00:11:24.760
your book,
00:11:25.860 --> 00:11:27.320
“Collage in all Dimensions.”
Gretchen:
00:11:27.905 --> 00:11:30.245
Right. That's 20 years of contemporary
00:11:30.545 --> 00:11:31.045
collage.
Kate:
00:11:31.425 --> 00:11:33.845
And that came out in 2005.
00:11:34.625 --> 00:11:37.365
It's available on the society's website.
Gretchen:
00:11:37.970 --> 00:11:40.690
Yes. We have a bookstore there.
Kate:
00:11:40.690 --> 00:11:41.190
Yes. Nationalcollage.com.
00:11:42.850 --> 00:11:45.830
What was your motivation for doing that book?
Gretchen:
00:11:48.505 --> 00:11:50.045
I, well, first of all,
00:11:50.665 --> 00:11:52.605
contemporary collage was not,
00:11:53.945 --> 00:11:54.925
featured anywhere.
00:11:56.120 --> 00:11:58.280
You know, in this century, there's a magazine about
00:11:58.280 --> 00:12:00.540
collage out of Montreal, Canada, and
00:12:00.920 --> 00:12:02.940
all kinds of publications — mostly
00:12:04.255 --> 00:12:06.255
how to do it type publications so you
00:12:06.255 --> 00:12:08.415
can start making your own collages. But at
00:12:08.415 --> 00:12:09.155
that time
00:12:09.775 --> 00:12:10.995
I thought that our
00:12:11.455 --> 00:12:12.275
most accomplished
00:12:12.800 --> 00:12:14.740
artists should be published somewhere.
00:12:15.760 --> 00:12:16.900
So we had enough
00:12:17.280 --> 00:12:19.860
shows under our belt that I just took
00:12:20.645 --> 00:12:22.905
images from the people that had won awards
00:12:23.525 --> 00:12:25.945
in our show or became signature members
00:12:26.565 --> 00:12:28.325
and decided to put them together in a
00:12:28.325 --> 00:12:28.825
book.
Kate:
00:12:29.240 --> 00:12:29.740
Okay.
00:12:31.000 --> 00:12:35.000
And what is your hope for what readers
00:12:35.000 --> 00:12:37.755
will get out of this book, or
00:12:37.755 --> 00:12:39.835
what readers do get out of this book?
Gretchen:
00:12:39.835 --> 00:12:41.995
Well, hopefully, they figure out what collage really
00:12:41.995 --> 00:12:42.495
is.
00:12:42.875 --> 00:12:45.810
And the exciting thing is looking at
00:12:45.810 --> 00:12:48.770
the variety of materials the artists used, images
00:12:48.770 --> 00:12:50.210
are there with a list of all the
00:12:50.210 --> 00:12:52.310
crazy things they glue into their artwork.
Kate:
00:12:52.775 --> 00:12:53.515
For instance?
Gretchen:
00:12:54.615 --> 00:12:55.595
Oh, geez.
Kate:
Toys?
Gretchen:
00:12:56.295 --> 00:12:57.925
Well, first of all, somebody had a
00:13:06.995 --> 00:13:09.475
dead mouse in his collage, and in Atlanta a guy
00:13:09.715 --> 00:13:12.835
had a dead frog. That was just gross, though. Mostly it's
00:13:12.835 --> 00:13:13.335
handmade
00:13:14.195 --> 00:13:15.735
paper and publications,
00:13:16.370 --> 00:13:17.190
old magazines.
00:13:18.130 --> 00:13:20.130
You can open a drawer and pull things
00:13:20.130 --> 00:13:22.370
out and glue them together, and collage in
00:13:22.370 --> 00:13:23.030
the 3rd
00:13:23.465 --> 00:13:25.785
dimension is assemblage. So we've got some really
00:13:25.785 --> 00:13:27.245
creative people out there.
00:13:27.785 --> 00:13:29.385
In Arizona, we have people go out in
00:13:29.385 --> 00:13:31.225
the desert and find rusty things and glue
00:13:31.225 --> 00:13:32.685
them together and make assemblage.
Kate:
00:13:34.280 --> 00:13:37.400
I had a conversation with another artist a
00:13:37.400 --> 00:13:38.220
while back.
00:13:39.160 --> 00:13:42.220
Her name is Theresa Wells Stifel. She
00:13:42.555 --> 00:13:45.215
she is on Etsy, and she has
00:13:46.395 --> 00:13:48.175
a Stifel and Capra
00:13:48.715 --> 00:13:51.770
website, where she sells different things. But she
00:13:51.770 --> 00:13:54.990
puts together collages too, paintings with
00:13:55.610 --> 00:13:56.110
with
00:13:56.650 --> 00:13:57.150
with
00:13:57.690 --> 00:14:00.045
the sort of the … she calls it the
00:14:02.045 --> 00:14:04.125
ephemera of life. You know, like, if
00:14:04.125 --> 00:14:06.685
people like, she'll do commissions where, you know,
00:14:06.685 --> 00:14:09.220
people have, you know, just things,
00:14:09.220 --> 00:14:12.520
whether they're concert tickets or, you know, whatever
00:14:12.660 --> 00:14:15.060
that they care about, and she'll put that
00:14:15.060 --> 00:14:17.400
together, which I thought was was very cool.
Gretchen:
00:14:17.675 --> 00:14:20.895
Oh, absolutely. That personalizes each piece of art.
00:14:21.035 --> 00:14:23.595
Those are good commissions to
00:14:23.595 --> 00:14:25.695
get because I've had people hand me materials.
00:14:26.230 --> 00:14:27.750
Somebody went on a cruise, and they wanted
00:14:27.750 --> 00:14:30.550
every ticket and every moment in this collage
00:14:30.550 --> 00:14:33.030
to hang on the wall. And that's
00:14:33.030 --> 00:14:35.210
easy because you know exactly what they want.
Kate:
00:14:35.685 --> 00:14:38.985
Yes. And I think that's a wonderful way
00:14:40.165 --> 00:14:43.700
to have, to display keepsakes instead of,
00:14:44.260 --> 00:14:46.900
you know, putting them away in
00:14:46.900 --> 00:14:49.700
a bin somewhere and then looking at
00:14:49.700 --> 00:14:52.395
them once every, you know, I don't know,
00:14:52.395 --> 00:14:53.215
or never,
00:14:54.235 --> 00:14:56.015
because they're tucked away somewhere.
00:14:56.555 --> 00:14:58.315
I just think that's a wonderful thing to
00:14:58.315 --> 00:15:00.330
do and to have art. You know, having
00:15:00.330 --> 00:15:03.690
somebody — and somebody with an artist's eye — do
00:15:03.690 --> 00:15:06.490
it. I just think that's splendid.
Gretchen:
00:15:06.490 --> 00:15:08.315
It is. I'm always amazed too because
00:15:08.315 --> 00:15:10.255
I'm not very good with the 3rd dimension,
00:15:10.475 --> 00:15:11.775
but some of our assemblage
00:15:12.315 --> 00:15:14.655
artists are just genius at what they do.
Kate:
00:15:15.035 --> 00:15:16.255
Wow.
Gretchen:
00:15:17.150 --> 00:15:19.070
One of them says,
00:15:19.070 --> 00:15:20.830
“I have to tell Gretchen there's glue in
00:15:20.830 --> 00:15:21.330
it.”
Kate:
00:15:22.830 --> 00:15:23.730
So what
00:15:24.270 --> 00:15:25.970
what makes a genius
00:15:26.825 --> 00:15:28.905
collage artist? I mean, what do you I
00:15:28.905 --> 00:15:31.305
mean, sort of like what what's the
00:15:31.305 --> 00:15:33.865
feeling that people get from their, you know,
00:15:33.865 --> 00:15:35.700
their work, you know, that makes it kind
00:15:35.700 --> 00:15:36.680
of like a genius
00:15:37.700 --> 00:15:39.160
piece?
Gretchen:
Well, they have to put
00:15:39.540 --> 00:15:40.040
disparate
00:15:41.060 --> 00:15:43.620
items together and make them look like a
00:15:43.620 --> 00:15:44.120
whole
00:15:45.855 --> 00:15:48.815
in a nice pleasing composition or an ugly
00:15:48.815 --> 00:15:50.895
composition. Ugly art is
00:15:50.895 --> 00:15:51.955
still really in.
00:15:52.415 --> 00:15:52.915
So
00:15:53.330 --> 00:15:55.590
it sounds like it would be easy,
00:15:55.970 --> 00:15:56.870
but it's not.
Kate:
00:15:57.250 --> 00:15:59.190
Yeah. It doesn't sound easy to me
00:15:59.810 --> 00:16:02.150
to make it pleasing, you know, especially.
Gretchen:
00:16:09.295 --> 00:16:10.115
If they’re dealing with metal, there could be welding involved.
00:16:10.550 --> 00:16:12.950
All types of different ways of holding things together, nuts and bolts and
00:16:12.950 --> 00:16:13.850
screws.
00:16:14.870 --> 00:16:17.130
But collage in the 3rd dimension is assemblage,
00:16:17.685 --> 00:16:20.565
and assemblage is a sculpture essentially because it
00:16:20.565 --> 00:16:22.185
sets out in the middle of the room.
00:16:23.365 --> 00:16:25.740
But not all sculpture is assemblage, you know,
00:16:25.740 --> 00:16:28.620
somebody's carving something out of marble, that's sculpture,
00:16:28.620 --> 00:16:29.680
that's not assemblage.
Kate:
00:16:30.220 --> 00:16:31.120
Right, yeah.
00:16:31.820 --> 00:16:32.320
So
00:16:32.725 --> 00:16:34.605
what do you love about collage?
Gretchen:
00:16:35.045 --> 00:16:35.545
Well,
00:16:36.245 --> 00:16:38.245
in the flat on the
00:16:38.245 --> 00:16:41.045
wall, collage is much more visually exciting than
00:16:41.045 --> 00:16:43.200
just painting. Paint is flat.
00:16:44.220 --> 00:16:46.540
You add another dimension when you glue collage
00:16:46.540 --> 00:16:48.860
on there, and that's what's so exciting about
00:16:48.860 --> 00:16:49.920
it.
Kate:
00:16:50.380 --> 00:16:51.120
Okay. The layers.
Gretchen:
00:16:52.285 --> 00:16:52.785
Absolutely.
Kate:
00:16:53.725 --> 00:16:56.765
Yeah. That's very interesting. That's a lot like
00:16:56.765 --> 00:16:57.905
life, isn't it?
Gretchen:
00:16:58.285 --> 00:17:00.420
Exactly. It's exactly what it's like.
00:17:00.820 --> 00:17:02.260
And, you know, when you tear a paper,
00:17:02.260 --> 00:17:04.020
you get a torn edge, and there's all
00:17:04.020 --> 00:17:05.960
different thicknesses of paper
00:17:06.260 --> 00:17:07.720
and ways of tearing it.
00:17:08.155 --> 00:17:10.955
And it's just exciting to see that because
00:17:10.955 --> 00:17:12.475
no matter what you do with paint, you're
00:17:12.475 --> 00:17:14.155
gonna have an edge, but it's never gonna
00:17:14.155 --> 00:17:16.075
look like that unless it's trompe l'oeil and
00:17:16.075 --> 00:17:18.750
you're going to try and duplicate a collage
00:17:18.750 --> 00:17:19.490
with paint.
Kate:
00:17:20.030 --> 00:17:20.530
Right.
00:17:20.910 --> 00:17:21.890
Yeah. That is
00:17:22.430 --> 00:17:23.570
certainly interesting.
00:17:24.110 --> 00:17:25.810
Another thing I think is interesting,
00:17:26.465 --> 00:17:27.365
we talked about
00:17:29.025 --> 00:17:29.845
your background
00:17:30.225 --> 00:17:32.545
and what you're doing now.
00:17:32.545 --> 00:17:35.960
And I find it fascinating that you consider
00:17:35.960 --> 00:17:38.140
yourself an art administrator
00:17:38.440 --> 00:17:41.480
more than anything else.
Gretchen:
Right. And educator. I've
00:17:41.480 --> 00:17:44.435
taught for many years.
00:17:44.435 --> 00:17:45.335
Educator and administrator.
Kate:
00:17:45.875 --> 00:17:46.855
And you became
00:17:48.355 --> 00:17:49.815
an art administrator
00:17:51.410 --> 00:17:51.910
before
00:17:52.930 --> 00:17:54.710
art administration was even
00:17:55.250 --> 00:17:55.750
ever
00:17:56.050 --> 00:17:58.550
thought of as a degree, much less offered
00:17:58.610 --> 00:17:59.275
as one.
Gretchen:
00:17:59.835 --> 00:18:00.335
Yeah.
00:18:00.955 --> 00:18:02.955
There's universities now with a master's in art
00:18:02.955 --> 00:18:03.455
administration.
Kate:
00:18:03.915 --> 00:18:06.075
Yeah. So how did you go about it?
Gretchen:
00:18:06.075 --> 00:18:08.095
Well, I started out with an art degree,
00:18:08.370 --> 00:18:09.190
and I had,
00:18:09.490 --> 00:18:11.890
you know, some basic job somewhere. And then
00:18:11.890 --> 00:18:13.670
I went back to graduate school
00:18:14.130 --> 00:18:15.330
and I was in art and I got
00:18:15.330 --> 00:18:17.265
a terrible grade in an art history course
00:18:17.265 --> 00:18:18.705
and that's a long story that I'm not
00:18:18.705 --> 00:18:20.545
gonna tell you. But I had this
00:18:20.545 --> 00:18:22.805
great assistantship, so I switched over
00:18:23.265 --> 00:18:24.645
to the College of Education
00:18:25.180 --> 00:18:26.160
to a university
00:18:26.620 --> 00:18:27.120
admission
00:18:27.580 --> 00:18:28.080
administration
00:18:28.620 --> 00:18:31.280
degree with statistics and tests and measurements
00:18:31.660 --> 00:18:33.600
because I was always good at math in
00:18:34.315 --> 00:18:35.135
high school and
00:18:35.515 --> 00:18:36.815
I finished that degree.
00:18:38.395 --> 00:18:39.835
And then I looked around, I had a
00:18:39.835 --> 00:18:41.835
job with that for 9 years at the
00:18:41.835 --> 00:18:44.220
university, I was writing the scholarship test
00:18:44.780 --> 00:18:47.420
in the honors college. And I thought
00:18:47.420 --> 00:18:48.860
I'm not gonna do this the rest of
00:18:48.860 --> 00:18:50.300
my life, so I just wrote a letter
00:18:50.300 --> 00:18:51.840
to the dean and said, I'm gone,
00:18:52.220 --> 00:18:53.840
and I'm gonna be an artist.
00:18:55.115 --> 00:18:56.735
That's what started it all.
00:18:57.755 --> 00:19:00.255
And then I discovered collage and then I
00:19:01.115 --> 00:19:03.135
discovered the collage society and
00:19:03.595 --> 00:19:03.980
that's
00:19:04.940 --> 00:19:06.700
what I needed to do.
Kate:
And you
00:19:06.700 --> 00:19:09.420
were off with running.
Gretchen:
00:19:09.420 --> 00:19:12.080
Yeah. It combines both my skills with keeping data and knowing art.
Kate:
00:19:12.545 --> 00:19:15.025
Well, somewhere along the way, and this was
00:19:15.025 --> 00:19:17.765
early on, you went to Iran, correct?
Gretchen:
00:19:18.225 --> 00:19:20.770
Oh, there was an exchange program with
00:19:21.010 --> 00:19:23.730
30 students from 6 different universities in the
00:19:23.730 --> 00:19:24.230
country.
00:19:25.090 --> 00:19:25.590
And
00:19:26.130 --> 00:19:28.530
they hired me to be advisor to the
00:19:28.530 --> 00:19:29.830
girls in the program.
00:19:30.455 --> 00:19:31.895
We packed them all up and took them
00:19:31.895 --> 00:19:32.555
to Shiraz,
00:19:33.175 --> 00:19:35.255
to the university there in Iran for a
00:19:35.255 --> 00:19:35.755
year.
00:19:36.295 --> 00:19:38.080
I got
00:19:38.080 --> 00:19:40.040
a chance to study Islamic art while I
00:19:40.040 --> 00:19:41.960
was there, but I was an administrator. That's
00:19:41.960 --> 00:19:43.180
the degree I had.
Kate:
00:19:44.200 --> 00:19:44.840
And you,
00:19:45.320 --> 00:19:49.245
were teaching some basic Farsi?
Gretchen:
00:19:49.245 --> 00:19:51.985
Farsi, yes. I had a tutor, a very serious
00:19:52.045 --> 00:19:53.965
tutor in Ohio before I left, and I
00:19:53.965 --> 00:19:56.125
was able to teach elementary Farsi to the
00:19:56.125 --> 00:19:56.625
students.
Kate:
00:19:57.870 --> 00:20:00.430
Jeez. So what did you get
00:20:00.430 --> 00:20:01.490
from that experience?
00:20:01.870 --> 00:20:03.970
You spent a year there?
Gretchen:
00:20:04.405 --> 00:20:06.565
Yes. It was just marvelous because it's the
00:20:06.565 --> 00:20:08.905
other side of the planet, and everything's different.
00:20:09.285 --> 00:20:10.585
You know, they say the East
00:20:12.090 --> 00:20:13.610
will never get along with the West, but
00:20:13.610 --> 00:20:16.090
that could be said about any border. But ...
Kate:
00:20:16.250 --> 00:20:18.730
Right. That's true.
Gretchen:
00:20:18.730 --> 00:20:20.430
The language, the culture was just beautiful there.
00:20:20.785 --> 00:20:22.565
I've always said I've lived in paradise,
00:20:23.665 --> 00:20:25.665
and that was one place, that city. The
00:20:25.665 --> 00:20:26.965
whole city was a paradise.
Kate:
00:20:27.825 --> 00:20:28.325
Wow.
00:20:29.150 --> 00:20:31.650
So you studied
00:20:32.190 --> 00:20:34.430
Islamic art?
Gretchen:
I was
00:20:34.430 --> 00:20:37.330
surrounded by it. Sure.
Kate:
Yes. So
00:20:37.630 --> 00:20:39.305
what was particularly
00:20:39.605 --> 00:20:40.105
appealing
00:20:41.125 --> 00:20:43.305
to you about Islamic art?
Gretchen:
00:20:43.605 --> 00:20:45.685
Oh, the colors and the language, and all
00:20:45.685 --> 00:20:47.990
the poets lived in Shiraz, the tombs were
00:20:47.990 --> 00:20:48.490
beautiful.
00:20:50.070 --> 00:20:50.570
And
00:20:51.750 --> 00:20:54.070
it's just so different than anything you can
00:20:54.070 --> 00:20:55.130
find in this country.
00:20:55.455 --> 00:20:57.535
I love … I’ve been in on 4 continents
00:20:57.535 --> 00:20:59.315
in about 30 countries, and
00:20:59.695 --> 00:21:01.795
it just broadens your horizons, and
00:21:02.175 --> 00:21:04.115
it's better than any formal education.
Kate:
00:21:05.010 --> 00:21:07.570
Yes. Yes. It does make you grow, doesn't
00:21:07.570 --> 00:21:08.070
it?
00:21:08.770 --> 00:21:10.870
And you and you find out a lot
00:21:11.090 --> 00:21:12.630
about what you don't know.
Gretchen:
00:21:13.665 --> 00:21:15.265
And then I came back and I'd
00:21:15.265 --> 00:21:17.745
go to the International Students Office on campus
00:21:17.745 --> 00:21:20.085
and steal newspapers — I'd ask, you know —
00:21:20.225 --> 00:21:22.225
but one of the newspapers was in Farsi,
00:21:22.225 --> 00:21:24.360
and one of my 1st
00:21:24.360 --> 00:21:27.560
biggest collages had Farsi newspapers glued into it,
00:21:27.560 --> 00:21:28.940
and it's a Persian market.
Kate:
00:21:30.040 --> 00:21:33.145
Oh, that's cool.
Gretchen:
I know. You just never
00:21:33.145 --> 00:21:34.925
know. It all comes together somehow.
Kate:
00:21:35.225 --> 00:21:36.045
No kidding.
00:21:36.745 --> 00:21:38.445
So do you have any,
00:21:39.145 --> 00:21:39.645
specific
00:21:40.025 --> 00:21:43.530
works that you did that hang in
00:21:43.910 --> 00:21:44.730
your home
00:21:45.270 --> 00:21:45.770
or,
00:21:46.550 --> 00:21:49.290
or hang somewhere else that you particularly love?
Gretchen:
00:21:50.595 --> 00:21:52.435
Well, I don't like hanging my own art.
00:21:52.435 --> 00:21:53.655
I like other people's.
00:21:54.915 --> 00:21:57.555
And my works are all over the country
00:21:57.555 --> 00:22:00.090
and in a couple other countries. The president of
00:22:00.090 --> 00:22:02.730
Panama, the former president Endara, had one of
00:22:02.730 --> 00:22:05.710
my pieces I did when we invaded there.
00:22:06.505 --> 00:22:08.125
It was a military type,
00:22:09.145 --> 00:22:10.205
but it was a celebration
00:22:11.945 --> 00:22:14.665
and I glued a picture of the first
00:22:14.665 --> 00:22:17.050
woman to lead our troops into combat in
00:22:17.050 --> 00:22:17.550
Panama.
Kate:
00:22:17.930 --> 00:22:20.330
Oh really?
Gretchen:
Yeah, she's front and center in
00:22:20.330 --> 00:22:21.930
the collage. I've got prints of it that
00:22:21.930 --> 00:22:22.990
were handed out
00:22:23.370 --> 00:22:23.870
and
00:22:25.795 --> 00:22:26.695
she's popped
00:22:27.075 --> 00:22:28.835
up in other places. I think she finally
00:22:28.835 --> 00:22:29.575
has one.
00:22:31.305 --> 00:22:33.450
Like I said, my
00:22:33.450 --> 00:22:36.010
commissions were most exciting because I knew where
00:22:36.010 --> 00:22:37.070
they were going and
00:22:38.810 --> 00:22:39.130
and,
00:22:39.610 --> 00:22:42.115
all the specifics. I like doing bicentennial
00:22:42.495 --> 00:22:44.195
collages too.
Kate:
00:22:44.815 --> 00:22:46.255
Please give an
00:22:46.575 --> 00:22:49.135
example of one of
00:22:49.135 --> 00:22:49.570
them.
Gretchen:
00:22:49.970 --> 00:22:51.970
Well, I did the Cleveland Bicentennial. I had
00:22:51.970 --> 00:22:53.270
all the sports teams
00:22:53.570 --> 00:22:55.810
and all the arts. Cleveland's such a strange
00:22:55.810 --> 00:22:57.650
city because that's all they've got is art
00:22:57.650 --> 00:22:59.575
and then sports. Nothing in
00:23:00.155 --> 00:23:00.655
between.
Kate:
00:23:01.235 --> 00:23:03.635
Well, there are things like, you know, the
00:23:03.635 --> 00:23:05.575
lake.
Gretchen:
00:23:06.090 --> 00:23:08.010
Geography, yeah. That was all in the collage.
00:23:08.010 --> 00:23:09.690
I had to make it a collage.
Kate:
The
00:23:09.690 --> 00:23:13.130
Emerald Necklace of the parks.
Gretchen:
Well, yeah.
00:23:13.130 --> 00:23:15.275
That's in there. The landscape is in the
00:23:15.275 --> 00:23:17.535
collage because when I did cityscapes,
00:23:17.595 --> 00:23:19.935
there's always a horizon line and
00:23:20.635 --> 00:23:21.135
mostly
00:23:21.435 --> 00:23:24.140
recognizable things above the horizon line and then
00:23:24.140 --> 00:23:26.140
down below, like I did an oil company
00:23:26.140 --> 00:23:28.000
with their building and all the layers
00:23:28.700 --> 00:23:29.760
of rocks underneath
00:23:30.380 --> 00:23:31.200
this collage.
00:23:31.615 --> 00:23:34.655
It's just an amazing medium. You can
00:23:34.655 --> 00:23:35.875
push it any direction.
00:23:36.495 --> 00:23:39.155
I like some of my, the biographical
00:23:39.375 --> 00:23:41.440
ones too of people that are famous.
00:23:42.240 --> 00:23:44.560
There was a lawyer in Akron who
00:23:44.560 --> 00:23:47.280
founded, he started the convention center there,
00:23:47.280 --> 00:23:48.640
and he had a big law firm with
00:23:48.640 --> 00:23:51.165
a spiral staircase, and I had him at
00:23:51.165 --> 00:23:53.405
the bottom on his bicycle as a paperboy
00:23:53.405 --> 00:23:55.005
and at the top he's sitting at his
00:23:55.005 --> 00:23:56.145
executive desk.
00:23:58.430 --> 00:24:00.350
And, you know, the celebration for these things
00:24:00.350 --> 00:24:01.710
is even more fun because they had a
00:24:01.710 --> 00:24:03.710
big luncheon and everybody's dressed up and they
00:24:03.710 --> 00:24:05.230
unveiled it, and he and his wife were
00:24:05.230 --> 00:24:07.705
both in tears because of course she had to collaborate
00:24:07.705 --> 00:24:09.385
with me. I don't, you know, I can't
00:24:09.385 --> 00:24:11.305
go directly to someone who's supposed to be
00:24:11.305 --> 00:24:11.805
surprised.
Kate:
00:24:12.265 --> 00:24:13.245
Right, right.
Gretchen:
00:24:13.790 --> 00:24:16.430
That was just wonderful.
Kate:
00:24:16.510 --> 00:24:18.750
Oh, that’s got to be very moving.
Gretchen:
00:24:18.750 --> 00:24:20.290
We should always celebrate art.
00:24:21.685 --> 00:24:23.285
They say if you can't sell it, you
00:24:23.285 --> 00:24:24.425
have to celebrate it.
Kate:
00:24:24.725 --> 00:24:27.285
Celebrate art and celebrate life at the same time
Gretchen:
00:24:27.285 --> 00:24:28.425
Exactly.
Kate:
00:24:29.050 --> 00:24:30.590
Yeah. That's great.
00:24:31.210 --> 00:24:31.710
So,
00:24:32.330 --> 00:24:32.830
so,
00:24:33.450 --> 00:24:35.930
Gretchen, is there anything else you'd like to
00:24:35.930 --> 00:24:39.015
say about life or art or whatever?
Gretchen:
00:24:40.835 --> 00:24:41.335
No.
00:24:41.875 --> 00:24:42.775
Life is good.
Kate:
00:24:43.235 --> 00:24:44.935
Yes. It is, isn't it?
00:24:45.940 --> 00:24:48.207
And I hope you continue enjoying your time,
00:24:48.473 --> 00:24:48.740
you're,
00:24:49.940 --> 00:24:50.340
in,
00:24:50.820 --> 00:24:51.320
Arizona
00:24:51.940 --> 00:24:52.680
and also
00:24:53.455 --> 00:24:55.855
in Northeast Ohio because you kind of go back
00:24:55.855 --> 00:24:58.575
and forth, don't you?
Gretchen:
Yes. I do.
Kate:
00:24:58.575 --> 00:25:00.655
That's great. Well, I really appreciate you being
00:25:00.655 --> 00:25:01.715
on the show today.
00:25:02.265 --> 00:25:02.750
So
00:25:03.070 --> 00:25:05.070
fun to talk to you.
Gretchen:
It's fun talking
00:25:05.070 --> 00:25:06.510
to you. Thank you for being such a
00:25:06.510 --> 00:25:08.450
good hostess.
Kate:
Oh, well,
00:25:08.830 --> 00:25:09.570
my pleasure!
<close>
00:25:10.755 --> 00:25:12.995
This is Kate again. Thank you for listening
00:25:12.995 --> 00:25:13.735
to the show.
00:25:14.035 --> 00:25:16.855
Please share this episode with anyone who's fascinated
00:25:17.315 --> 00:25:19.720
by the fine art of collage and wants
00:25:19.720 --> 00:25:21.340
to learn more about it.