The Fine Art of Collage with Gretchen Bierbaum

In 1982, collage artist Gretchen Bierbaum founded The National Collage Society, Inc., which is still going strong. Gretchen is the president of the NCS, which promotes the advancement of collage as a major art medium and educates the public through exhibits, workshops, lectures and publications. 

In this episode, Gretchen talks about her "light-bulb moment" that led to her becoming a collage artist. She studied Islamic art in Iran, became an art educator and administrator, and has enjoyed doing bicentennial and other commissions, including a painting that hangs in the dining room of one of the Sea Wolf nuclear submarines.

She's the author of "Collage in all Dimensions," published in 2005. The book traces the history of collage as a fine art. Although collage existed in many craft forms prior to the 20th century, it was not until 1912 that Pablo Picasso and Georges Braque were the first historically significant artists to glue collage pieces into paintings. The art form has evolved ever since.

Gretchen wrote an e-book, "Creating Collage in all Dimensions — Techniques to Alter and Transfer Images," in 2010. Both of her books are available from the bookstore on the National Collage Society's website, where you also can view the winning entries in the society's annual exhibitions.

Another item in the store that caught my eye was a cachet, which is a printed design added to an envelope to commemorate a special event.  The NCS cachet honors Romare Bearden, an American artist whose 1988 obituary in The New York Times described him as "the nation's foremost collagist."

On September 28, 2011, the U.S. Postal Service issued a Romare Bearden stamp in four different collage designs. Each NCS cachet features one of those designs along with a postmark and a print of an original collage by Gretchen titled, "Homage to Romare." The cachet also commemorates 100 years of collage as a fine art. I  ordered one for myself — it's cool!

You can go to the society's website to purchase her books, the show catalogs or the cachet. 

For more about the NCS, follow the society on Facebook. The society also is listed in Kolaj Magazine's International Directory of Collage Communities.

This is Kate Jones. Thank you for listening to the show!

Available on Apple, Spotify, Audible and in other directories, and on YouTube.

Transcript

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Hello, and welcome to Everyday Creation,

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a show about lifting our vibes for ourselves

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and the world.

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I'm Kate Jones, here with collage artist

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Gretchen Bierbaum,

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president and founder of the National Collage Society.

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Gretchen is the author

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of “Collage in all Dimensions,”

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published in 2005,

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and “Creating Collage in all Dimensions — 

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Techniques to Alter and Transfer Images,”

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an ebook published in 2010.

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They're available on nationalcollage.com.

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In this episode,

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Gretchen talks about the history of collage up

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to the present time,

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a little about her own history,

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her submarine commission,

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and much more,

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including the illuminating year she spent in Iran.

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This interview begins with Gretchen answering my question

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about when she started the National Collage Society

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and why.

Gretchen:

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It was

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1982,

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and

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a lot

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of local artists

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were, mostly the ones I knew, were watercolorists.

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And then, I was taking private lessons with

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a really famous guy in Cleveland

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who one day started gluing

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some newsprint and some other papers onto the

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surface of a watercolor painting and it was

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one of those light bulb moments for me,

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and I went ah-ha

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and I started making collage. But then I

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looked around and any,

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any type of competition or

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exhibit did not have a category for collage

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and they wouldn't allow us in any of

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the watercolor societies.

Kate:

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Really?

Gretchen:

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Well, we're just banned.

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And

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so I decided, well,

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I'm going to start a collage society. And

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I met the guy that started the American

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Watercolor Society in New York City. He was

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in Ohio.

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And I said to him, I think I'm

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going to do this. He said, “Well, do

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it before somebody else does.”

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So the National Collage Society is actually

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the first

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organized

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group in this country and now there's just

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dozens of them everywhere. We started out with

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regional groups, and they've all gone off on

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their own and become independent and successful.

Kate:

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I read that you promote the advancement of

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collage as a major art medium,

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and you assist in educating

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the public.

Gretchen:

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Yes. Our mission is education,

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art education

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through exhibits,

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workshops,

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lectures, publications — 

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any way we can reach the public.

Kate:

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Great. And you have an annual juried event?

Gretchen:

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Well, that's the biggest event. 

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It's online for a year.

Kate:

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Oh, okay. So, basically, you have something up

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all year long then. 

Gretchen:

Definitely.

Kate:
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Wow. Okay. So you, so people can go

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to it from the National Collage Society's website.

Gretchen:

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Right.

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Nationalcollage.com.

Kate:

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Incredible work by artists from around

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the U.S. and internationally.

Gretchen:

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Well, I hire the best jury you can

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find. It's all academically based, and we always

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have a professor

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from a major university

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and

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one museum curator

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and one working artist who's been very accomplished.

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And then we have a 4th one as

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a judge.

Kate:

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Is it a big-deal

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event to get into?

Gretchen:

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Well, yes. They're usually only professional artists

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who are really accomplished that can get by

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the jury to be in the show, and

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what it demonstrates is that

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contemporary

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art has many, many mixed media artists

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now, a lot more than the last century.

Kate:

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Ah, that's very interesting.

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So back in the day when

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you couldn't even get in …

Gretchen:

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Yeah. They wouldn't allow us in shows. 

Kate:

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Yes. You wouldn't couldn't even get into shows.

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And now, you know, there are so many,

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so many artists doing this.

Gretchen:

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Right. And

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collage is an art historical term. It's just

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not something you throw around except it's been

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used generically for the wrong things.

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I was told I could never stop that,

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but …

Kate:

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What do you mean? 

Gretchen:

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Oh, there were, there was some computer company

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called Collage back in

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in the eighties.

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I talked to the art history

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professor at the Cleveland Institute of Art. She

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said, “You can't stop that. It's like the

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word Kleenex.” I said, no, it isn’t!

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Mixed media has always been around,

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but that's kind of a loose term.

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All of collage is mixed media, but

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not all mixed media is collage because you

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can draw a picture with a pencil and

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then paint some watercolor over it. That's mixed

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media.

Kate:

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Oh, okay, but that's not collage.

Gretchen:

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No. The magic word is glue because collage

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is a French derived term from the verb

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coller, which means to glue or to paste.

Kate:

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Oh, okay.

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So would you talk about the history of

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collage?

Gretchen:

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Oh, sure. I'd love to talk about that.

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Collage was always

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an active

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craft for hundreds of years. Somebody just had

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a show in Scotland with 400 years of

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collage.

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And, you know, just all types of things.

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Sailors used to glue seashells together for their

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sweethearts and

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Victorian ladies made valentines with lace and

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different materials.

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So it's always been around, but to be

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described as a fine art,

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it had to take Picasso and Braque in

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1912 to start gluing things on their paintings.

Kate:

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Okay. So, so then what happened? 

Gretchen:
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Then it became a fine art.

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And people still didn't understand it. Well, a

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museum wouldn't accept them at first. And

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they were in a studio together in southern

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France,

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and Braque had to go off to the war

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and had a terrible head injury. And Picasso

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was Spanish, didn't have to go to war.

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Braque was the intellectual, and I always

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give him credit for actually knowing what he

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was doing. Picasso was just playing around at

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the time. 

Kate:

Everybody knows,

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Pablo Picasso, but how about Georges Braque?

Gretchen:

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Well, he was French and they

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had a studio in France, so all of

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the terms for collage are French.

Kate:

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Okay.

Gretchen:

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And that's one of the things I did

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with my book about contemporary collages, identify all

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those terms.

Kate:

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So that's the history of

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collage becoming a fine art.

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And, and your own history,

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how did you come to do what you

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do?

Gretchen:

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Well, I told you I was studying watercolor.

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I didn't have watercolor in my art degree

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program.

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You know watercolor had to come into its

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own also because it used to be just

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considered a sketching medium

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for all the other paint mediums, and

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watercolor

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just wasn't important. But now, if you frame

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a watercolor properly it will last longer than

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any oil painting.

Kate:

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Really?

Gretchen:

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So they were always looking, the archivists were

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always looking at things and still deciding watercolor

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was for sketching.

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But since I didn't have a class in

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it, I signed up for private tutor

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after I graduated and

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for 6 years studied watercolor.

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And I told you he started gluing thing

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things on the surface of one of his

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paintings in one class. And I told

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you that was my light bulb moment.

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And I just knew I had to

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do that.

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And this is like any other time you

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study with someone, your work looks like theirs,

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but

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I took it in a whole new direction

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and started

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doing commercial, I call it commercial art because

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I would have commissions

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and I would do cityscapes

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using a local newspaper

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with their logotype

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and articles. And

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I did a bicentennial

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collage for Cleveland and one for Hudson,

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and

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my favorite one is in a nuclear submarine.

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The Navy League hired me to do a

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collage of the home city when the submarine

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was commissioned.

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Every boat has a home base. And

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in the Navy they say that when they

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leave the Navy they can go back to

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their home, and have a job.

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So I'm wondering if there's any sailors in

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Akron from that Sea Wolf series,

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but the submarine's still out there floating around

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somewhere with my painting in the commander's dining

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room. 

Kate:

Oh, that's so cool. What did

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you do? 

Gretchen:

Well, I …

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actually, it's not the name. The submarine is

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not named after Akron like most of them

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have a name or state,

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and,

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it's called Seawolf.

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And I did a collage of Akron, the

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downtown,

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and the canal coming forward, to the foreground,

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and I put the submarine in the canal.

Kate:

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Wow. It never actually was in the canal, though!

Gretchen:

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But we don’t see it. It gurgles under a parking garage somewhere.

Kate:

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So these were, these were sailors from

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the Akron area?

Gretchen:

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No. No. They're from all over but

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because Akron hosted the commissioning. I

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was at the commissioning up in Groton, Connecticut,

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where the Electric Boat Company is. The

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Navy League took me up there to present

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my collage to the commander of the boat.

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It was the mayor of Akron that did

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that in a museum.

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And, the sailors then, of course, have gone

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on to other things probably, but,

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well, it's still, it was the fastest

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submarine we ever made.

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It’s still out there. 

Kate:

Seawolf.

Gretchen:

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Seawolf series. I saw them building the

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next two.

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I got the tour of the Electric Boat

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Company. It's just so bizarre that they would

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invite an artist to do all that, but

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I just

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loved every minute of it. 

Kate:

Wow.

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How did that come about? I mean, how

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did you get that commission?

Gretchen:

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You know, I don't remember.

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But what's weird, I was

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there and the commander of the boat came

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up. He was like 6 foot 4 and

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you think submarine that they're all going to be

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little people, but it was huge in there,

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20-foot ceilings in the

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in the missile room, and he came up and

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gave me a big hug from Washington, D.C.

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I said, okay, who do you know?

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It was … my high school boyfriend was

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undersecretary

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of defense and

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they were talking one day and the commander

00:11:04.130 --> 00:11:05.570

said, “Oh, we got some artist from

00:11:06.130 --> 00:11:09.190

Ohio that's doing a commission for us.” And he said,

00:11:09.715 --> 00:11:12.035

“Is her name Gretchen Bierbaum?” “Yeah, you

00:11:12.035 --> 00:11:12.775

know her?”

00:11:13.31e:5 --> 00:11:13.815

Jeez.

Kate:

00:11:14.355 --> 00:11:17.155

That is so funny. 

Gretchen:

You

00:11:17.155 --> 00:11:19.220

live long enough, all this comes back around.

00:11:19.220 --> 00:11:19.720

Kate:

Right!

00:11:21.220 --> 00:11:23.060

So, anyway, you referenced your,

00:11:24.020 --> 00:11:24.760

your book,

00:11:25.860 --> 00:11:27.320

“Collage in all Dimensions.”

Gretchen:

00:11:27.905 --> 00:11:30.245

Right. That's 20 years of contemporary

00:11:30.545 --> 00:11:31.045

collage.

Kate:

00:11:31.425 --> 00:11:33.845

And that came out in 2005.

00:11:34.625 --> 00:11:37.365

It's available on the society's website.

Gretchen:

00:11:37.970 --> 00:11:40.690

Yes. We have a bookstore there.

Kate:

00:11:40.690 --> 00:11:41.190

Yes. Nationalcollage.com.

00:11:42.850 --> 00:11:45.830

What was your motivation for doing that book?

Gretchen:

00:11:48.505 --> 00:11:50.045

I, well, first of all,

00:11:50.665 --> 00:11:52.605

contemporary collage was not,

00:11:53.945 --> 00:11:54.925

featured anywhere.

00:11:56.120 --> 00:11:58.280

You know, in this century, there's a magazine about

00:11:58.280 --> 00:12:00.540

collage out of Montreal, Canada, and

00:12:00.920 --> 00:12:02.940

all kinds of publications — mostly

00:12:04.255 --> 00:12:06.255

how to do it type publications so you

00:12:06.255 --> 00:12:08.415

can start making your own collages. But at

00:12:08.415 --> 00:12:09.155

that time

00:12:09.775 --> 00:12:10.995

I thought that our

00:12:11.455 --> 00:12:12.275

most accomplished

00:12:12.800 --> 00:12:14.740

artists should be published somewhere.

00:12:15.760 --> 00:12:16.900

So we had enough

00:12:17.280 --> 00:12:19.860

shows under our belt that I just took

00:12:20.645 --> 00:12:22.905

images from the people that had won awards

00:12:23.525 --> 00:12:25.945

in our show or became signature members

00:12:26.565 --> 00:12:28.325

and decided to put them together in a

00:12:28.325 --> 00:12:28.825

book.

Kate:

00:12:29.240 --> 00:12:29.740

Okay.

00:12:31.000 --> 00:12:35.000

And what is your hope for what readers

00:12:35.000 --> 00:12:37.755

will get out of this book, or

00:12:37.755 --> 00:12:39.835

what readers do get out of this book?

Gretchen:

00:12:39.835 --> 00:12:41.995

Well, hopefully, they figure out what collage really

00:12:41.995 --> 00:12:42.495

is.

00:12:42.875 --> 00:12:45.810

And the exciting thing is looking at

00:12:45.810 --> 00:12:48.770

the variety of materials the artists used, images

00:12:48.770 --> 00:12:50.210

are there with a list of all the

00:12:50.210 --> 00:12:52.310

crazy things they glue into their artwork.

Kate:

00:12:52.775 --> 00:12:53.515

For instance?

Gretchen:

00:12:54.615 --> 00:12:55.595

Oh, geez.

Kate:

Toys?

Gretchen:

00:12:56.295 --> 00:12:57.925

Well, first of all, somebody had a

00:13:06.995 --> 00:13:09.475

dead mouse in his collage, and in Atlanta a guy

00:13:09.715 --> 00:13:12.835

had a dead frog. That was just gross, though. Mostly it's

00:13:12.835 --> 00:13:13.335

handmade

00:13:14.195 --> 00:13:15.735

paper and publications,

00:13:16.370 --> 00:13:17.190

old magazines.

00:13:18.130 --> 00:13:20.130

You can open a drawer and pull things

00:13:20.130 --> 00:13:22.370

out and glue them together, and collage in

00:13:22.370 --> 00:13:23.030

the 3rd

00:13:23.465 --> 00:13:25.785

dimension is assemblage. So we've got some really

00:13:25.785 --> 00:13:27.245

creative people out there.

00:13:27.785 --> 00:13:29.385

In Arizona, we have people go out in

00:13:29.385 --> 00:13:31.225

the desert and find rusty things and glue

00:13:31.225 --> 00:13:32.685

them together and make assemblage.

Kate:

00:13:34.280 --> 00:13:37.400

I had a conversation with another artist a

00:13:37.400 --> 00:13:38.220

while back.

00:13:39.160 --> 00:13:42.220

Her name is Theresa Wells Stifel. She

00:13:42.555 --> 00:13:45.215

she is on Etsy, and she has

00:13:46.395 --> 00:13:48.175

a Stifel and Capra

00:13:48.715 --> 00:13:51.770

website, where she sells different things. But she

00:13:51.770 --> 00:13:54.990

puts together collages too, paintings with

00:13:55.610 --> 00:13:56.110

with

00:13:56.650 --> 00:13:57.150

with

00:13:57.690 --> 00:14:00.045

the sort of the … she calls it the

00:14:02.045 --> 00:14:04.125

ephemera of life. You know, like, if

00:14:04.125 --> 00:14:06.685

people like, she'll do commissions where, you know,

00:14:06.685 --> 00:14:09.220

people have, you know, just things, 

00:14:09.220 --> 00:14:12.520

whether they're concert tickets or, you know, whatever

00:14:12.660 --> 00:14:15.060

that they care about, and she'll put that

00:14:15.060 --> 00:14:17.400

together, which I thought was was very cool.

Gretchen:

00:14:17.675 --> 00:14:20.895

Oh, absolutely. That personalizes each piece of art.

00:14:21.035 --> 00:14:23.595

Those are good commissions to

00:14:23.595 --> 00:14:25.695

get because I've had people hand me materials.

00:14:26.230 --> 00:14:27.750

Somebody went on a cruise, and they wanted

00:14:27.750 --> 00:14:30.550

every ticket and every moment in this collage

00:14:30.550 --> 00:14:33.030

to hang on the wall. And that's

00:14:33.030 --> 00:14:35.210

easy because you know exactly what they want.

Kate:

00:14:35.685 --> 00:14:38.985

Yes. And I think that's a wonderful way

00:14:40.165 --> 00:14:43.700

to have, to display keepsakes instead of,

00:14:44.260 --> 00:14:46.900

you know, putting them away in

00:14:46.900 --> 00:14:49.700

a bin somewhere and then looking at

00:14:49.700 --> 00:14:52.395

them once every, you know, I don't know,

00:14:52.395 --> 00:14:53.215

or never,

00:14:54.235 --> 00:14:56.015

because they're tucked away somewhere.

00:14:56.555 --> 00:14:58.315

I just think that's a wonderful thing to

00:14:58.315 --> 00:15:00.330

do and to have art. You know, having

00:15:00.330 --> 00:15:03.690

somebody  — and somebody with an artist's eye  — do

00:15:03.690 --> 00:15:06.490

it. I just think that's splendid.

Gretchen:

00:15:06.490 --> 00:15:08.315

It is. I'm always amazed too because

00:15:08.315 --> 00:15:10.255

I'm not very good with the 3rd dimension,

00:15:10.475 --> 00:15:11.775

but some of our assemblage

00:15:12.315 --> 00:15:14.655

artists are just genius at what they do.

Kate:

00:15:15.035 --> 00:15:16.255

Wow.

Gretchen:

00:15:17.150 --> 00:15:19.070

One of them says,

00:15:19.070 --> 00:15:20.830

“I have to tell Gretchen there's glue in

00:15:20.830 --> 00:15:21.330

it.”

Kate:

00:15:22.830 --> 00:15:23.730

So what

00:15:24.270 --> 00:15:25.970

what makes a genius

00:15:26.825 --> 00:15:28.905

collage artist? I mean, what do you I

00:15:28.905 --> 00:15:31.305

mean, sort of like what what's the

00:15:31.305 --> 00:15:33.865

feeling that people get from their, you know,

00:15:33.865 --> 00:15:35.700

their work, you know, that makes it kind

00:15:35.700 --> 00:15:36.680

of like a genius

00:15:37.700 --> 00:15:39.160

piece? 

Gretchen:
Well, they have to put

00:15:39.540 --> 00:15:40.040

disparate

00:15:41.060 --> 00:15:43.620

items together and make them look like a

00:15:43.620 --> 00:15:44.120

whole

00:15:45.855 --> 00:15:48.815

in a nice pleasing composition or an ugly

00:15:48.815 --> 00:15:50.895

composition. Ugly art is

00:15:50.895 --> 00:15:51.955

still really in.

00:15:52.415 --> 00:15:52.915

So

00:15:53.330 --> 00:15:55.590

it sounds like it would be easy,

00:15:55.970 --> 00:15:56.870

but it's not.

Kate:

00:15:57.250 --> 00:15:59.190

Yeah. It doesn't sound easy to me

00:15:59.810 --> 00:16:02.150

to make it pleasing, you know, especially.

Gretchen:

00:16:09.295 --> 00:16:10.115

If they’re dealing with metal, there could be welding involved.

00:16:10.550 --> 00:16:12.950

All types of different ways of holding things together, nuts and bolts and

00:16:12.950 --> 00:16:13.850

screws.

00:16:14.870 --> 00:16:17.130

But collage in the 3rd dimension is assemblage,

00:16:17.685 --> 00:16:20.565

and assemblage is a sculpture essentially because it

00:16:20.565 --> 00:16:22.185

sets out in the middle of the room.

00:16:23.365 --> 00:16:25.740

But not all sculpture is assemblage, you know,

00:16:25.740 --> 00:16:28.620

somebody's carving something out of marble, that's sculpture,

00:16:28.620 --> 00:16:29.680

that's not assemblage.

Kate:

00:16:30.220 --> 00:16:31.120

Right, yeah.

00:16:31.820 --> 00:16:32.320

So

00:16:32.725 --> 00:16:34.605

what do you love about collage?

Gretchen:

00:16:35.045 --> 00:16:35.545

Well,

00:16:36.245 --> 00:16:38.245

in the flat on the

00:16:38.245 --> 00:16:41.045

wall, collage is much more visually exciting than

00:16:41.045 --> 00:16:43.200

just painting. Paint is flat.

00:16:44.220 --> 00:16:46.540

You add another dimension when you glue collage

00:16:46.540 --> 00:16:48.860

on there, and that's what's so exciting about

00:16:48.860 --> 00:16:49.920

it.

Kate:

00:16:50.380 --> 00:16:51.120

Okay. The layers.

Gretchen:

00:16:52.285 --> 00:16:52.785

Absolutely.

Kate:

00:16:53.725 --> 00:16:56.765

Yeah. That's very interesting. That's a lot like

00:16:56.765 --> 00:16:57.905

life, isn't it?

Gretchen:

00:16:58.285 --> 00:17:00.420

Exactly. It's exactly what it's like.

00:17:00.820 --> 00:17:02.260

And, you know, when you tear a paper,

00:17:02.260 --> 00:17:04.020

you get a torn edge, and there's all

00:17:04.020 --> 00:17:05.960

different thicknesses of paper

00:17:06.260 --> 00:17:07.720

and ways of tearing it.

00:17:08.155 --> 00:17:10.955

And it's just exciting to see that because

00:17:10.955 --> 00:17:12.475

no matter what you do with paint, you're

00:17:12.475 --> 00:17:14.155

gonna have an edge, but it's never gonna

00:17:14.155 --> 00:17:16.075

look like that unless it's trompe l'oeil and

00:17:16.075 --> 00:17:18.750

you're going to try and duplicate a collage

00:17:18.750 --> 00:17:19.490

with paint.

Kate:

00:17:20.030 --> 00:17:20.530

Right.

00:17:20.910 --> 00:17:21.890

Yeah. That is

00:17:22.430 --> 00:17:23.570

certainly interesting.

00:17:24.110 --> 00:17:25.810

Another thing I think is interesting,

00:17:26.465 --> 00:17:27.365

we talked about

00:17:29.025 --> 00:17:29.845

your background

00:17:30.225 --> 00:17:32.545

and what you're doing now.

00:17:32.545 --> 00:17:35.960

And I find it fascinating that you consider

00:17:35.960 --> 00:17:38.140

yourself an art administrator

00:17:38.440 --> 00:17:41.480

more than anything else. 

Gretchen:

Right. And educator. I've

00:17:41.480 --> 00:17:44.435

taught for many years. 

00:17:44.435 --> 00:17:45.335

Educator and administrator.

Kate:

00:17:45.875 --> 00:17:46.855

And you became

00:17:48.355 --> 00:17:49.815

an art administrator

00:17:51.410 --> 00:17:51.910

before

00:17:52.930 --> 00:17:54.710

art administration was even

00:17:55.250 --> 00:17:55.750

ever

00:17:56.050 --> 00:17:58.550

thought of as a degree, much less offered

00:17:58.610 --> 00:17:59.275

as one.

Gretchen:

00:17:59.835 --> 00:18:00.335

Yeah.

00:18:00.955 --> 00:18:02.955

There's universities now with a master's in art

00:18:02.955 --> 00:18:03.455

administration.

Kate:

00:18:03.915 --> 00:18:06.075

Yeah. So how did you go about it?

Gretchen:

00:18:06.075 --> 00:18:08.095

Well, I started out with an art degree,

00:18:08.370 --> 00:18:09.190

and I had,

00:18:09.490 --> 00:18:11.890

you know, some basic job somewhere. And then

00:18:11.890 --> 00:18:13.670

I went back to graduate school

00:18:14.130 --> 00:18:15.330

and I was in art and I got

00:18:15.330 --> 00:18:17.265

a terrible grade in an art history course

00:18:17.265 --> 00:18:18.705

and that's a long story that I'm not

00:18:18.705 --> 00:18:20.545

gonna tell you. But I had this

00:18:20.545 --> 00:18:22.805

great assistantship, so I switched over

00:18:23.265 --> 00:18:24.645

to the College of Education

00:18:25.180 --> 00:18:26.160

to a university

00:18:26.620 --> 00:18:27.120

admission

00:18:27.580 --> 00:18:28.080

administration

00:18:28.620 --> 00:18:31.280

degree with statistics and tests and measurements

00:18:31.660 --> 00:18:33.600

because I was always good at math in

00:18:34.315 --> 00:18:35.135

high school and

00:18:35.515 --> 00:18:36.815

I finished that degree.

00:18:38.395 --> 00:18:39.835

And then I looked around, I had a

00:18:39.835 --> 00:18:41.835

job with that for 9 years at the

00:18:41.835 --> 00:18:44.220

university, I was writing the scholarship test

00:18:44.780 --> 00:18:47.420

in the honors college. And I thought

00:18:47.420 --> 00:18:48.860

I'm not gonna do this the rest of

00:18:48.860 --> 00:18:50.300

my life, so I just wrote a letter

00:18:50.300 --> 00:18:51.840

to the dean and said, I'm gone,

00:18:52.220 --> 00:18:53.840

and I'm gonna be an artist.

00:18:55.115 --> 00:18:56.735

That's what started it all.

00:18:57.755 --> 00:19:00.255

And then I discovered collage and then I

00:19:01.115 --> 00:19:03.135

discovered the collage society and

00:19:03.595 --> 00:19:03.980

that's

00:19:04.940 --> 00:19:06.700

what I needed to do. 

Kate:

And you

00:19:06.700 --> 00:19:09.420

were off with running.

Gretchen:

00:19:09.420 --> 00:19:12.080

Yeah. It combines both my skills with keeping data and knowing art.

Kate:

00:19:12.545 --> 00:19:15.025

Well, somewhere along the way, and this was

00:19:15.025 --> 00:19:17.765

early on, you went to Iran, correct?

Gretchen:

00:19:18.225 --> 00:19:20.770

Oh, there was an exchange program with

00:19:21.010 --> 00:19:23.730

30 students from 6 different universities in the

00:19:23.730 --> 00:19:24.230

country.

00:19:25.090 --> 00:19:25.590

And

00:19:26.130 --> 00:19:28.530

they hired me to be advisor to the

00:19:28.530 --> 00:19:29.830

girls in the program.

00:19:30.455 --> 00:19:31.895

We packed them all up and took them

00:19:31.895 --> 00:19:32.555

to Shiraz,

00:19:33.175 --> 00:19:35.255

to the university there in Iran for a

00:19:35.255 --> 00:19:35.755

year.

00:19:36.295 --> 00:19:38.080

I got

00:19:38.080 --> 00:19:40.040

a chance to study Islamic art while I

00:19:40.040 --> 00:19:41.960

was there, but I was an administrator. That's

00:19:41.960 --> 00:19:43.180

the degree I had.

Kate:

00:19:44.200 --> 00:19:44.840

And you,

00:19:45.320 --> 00:19:49.245

were teaching some basic Farsi?

Gretchen:

00:19:49.245 --> 00:19:51.985

Farsi, yes. I had a tutor, a very serious

00:19:52.045 --> 00:19:53.965

tutor in Ohio before I left, and I

00:19:53.965 --> 00:19:56.125

was able to teach elementary Farsi to the

00:19:56.125 --> 00:19:56.625

students.

Kate:

00:19:57.870 --> 00:20:00.430

Jeez. So what did you get

00:20:00.430 --> 00:20:01.490

from that experience?

00:20:01.870 --> 00:20:03.970

You spent a year there?

Gretchen:

00:20:04.405 --> 00:20:06.565

Yes. It was just marvelous because it's the

00:20:06.565 --> 00:20:08.905

other side of the planet, and everything's different.

00:20:09.285 --> 00:20:10.585

You know, they say the East

00:20:12.090 --> 00:20:13.610

will never get along with the West, but

00:20:13.610 --> 00:20:16.090

that could be said about any border. But ...

Kate:

00:20:16.250 --> 00:20:18.730

Right. That's true.

Gretchen:

00:20:18.730 --> 00:20:20.430

The language, the culture was just beautiful there.

00:20:20.785 --> 00:20:22.565

I've always said I've lived in paradise,

00:20:23.665 --> 00:20:25.665

and that was one place, that city. The

00:20:25.665 --> 00:20:26.965

whole city was a paradise.

Kate:

00:20:27.825 --> 00:20:28.325

Wow.

00:20:29.150 --> 00:20:31.650

So you studied

00:20:32.190 --> 00:20:34.430

Islamic art? 

Gretchen:

I was 

00:20:34.430 --> 00:20:37.330

surrounded by it. Sure. 

Kate:

Yes. So

00:20:37.630 --> 00:20:39.305

what was particularly

00:20:39.605 --> 00:20:40.105

appealing

00:20:41.125 --> 00:20:43.305

to you about Islamic art?

Gretchen:

00:20:43.605 --> 00:20:45.685

Oh, the colors and the language, and all

00:20:45.685 --> 00:20:47.990

the poets lived in Shiraz, the tombs were

00:20:47.990 --> 00:20:48.490

beautiful.

00:20:50.070 --> 00:20:50.570

And

00:20:51.750 --> 00:20:54.070

it's just so different than anything you can

00:20:54.070 --> 00:20:55.130

find in this country.

00:20:55.455 --> 00:20:57.535

I love … I’ve been in on 4 continents

00:20:57.535 --> 00:20:59.315

in about 30 countries, and

00:20:59.695 --> 00:21:01.795

it just broadens your horizons, and

00:21:02.175 --> 00:21:04.115

it's better than any formal education.

Kate:

00:21:05.010 --> 00:21:07.570

Yes. Yes. It does make you grow, doesn't

00:21:07.570 --> 00:21:08.070

it?

00:21:08.770 --> 00:21:10.870

And you and you find out a lot

00:21:11.090 --> 00:21:12.630

about what you don't know.

Gretchen:

00:21:13.665 --> 00:21:15.265

And then I came back and I'd

00:21:15.265 --> 00:21:17.745

go to the International Students Office on campus

00:21:17.745 --> 00:21:20.085

and steal newspapers — I'd ask, you know —

00:21:20.225 --> 00:21:22.225

but one of the newspapers was in Farsi,

00:21:22.225 --> 00:21:24.360

and one of my 1st

00:21:24.360 --> 00:21:27.560

biggest collages had Farsi newspapers glued into it,

00:21:27.560 --> 00:21:28.940

and it's a Persian market.

Kate:

00:21:30.040 --> 00:21:33.145

Oh, that's cool. 

Gretchen:

I know. You just never

00:21:33.145 --> 00:21:34.925

know. It all comes together somehow.

Kate:

00:21:35.225 --> 00:21:36.045

No kidding.

00:21:36.745 --> 00:21:38.445

So do you have any,

00:21:39.145 --> 00:21:39.645

specific

00:21:40.025 --> 00:21:43.530

works that you did that hang in

00:21:43.910 --> 00:21:44.730

your home

00:21:45.270 --> 00:21:45.770

or,

00:21:46.550 --> 00:21:49.290

or hang somewhere else that you particularly love?

Gretchen:

00:21:50.595 --> 00:21:52.435

Well, I don't like hanging my own art.

00:21:52.435 --> 00:21:53.655

I like other people's.

00:21:54.915 --> 00:21:57.555

And my works are all over the country

00:21:57.555 --> 00:22:00.090

and in a couple other countries. The president of

00:22:00.090 --> 00:22:02.730

Panama, the former president Endara, had one of

00:22:02.730 --> 00:22:05.710

my pieces I did when we invaded there.

00:22:06.505 --> 00:22:08.125

It was a military type,

00:22:09.145 --> 00:22:10.205

but it was a celebration

00:22:11.945 --> 00:22:14.665

and I glued a picture of the first

00:22:14.665 --> 00:22:17.050

woman to lead our troops into combat in

00:22:17.050 --> 00:22:17.550

Panama.

Kate:

00:22:17.930 --> 00:22:20.330

Oh really? 

Gretchen:

Yeah, she's front and center in

00:22:20.330 --> 00:22:21.930

the collage. I've got prints of it that

00:22:21.930 --> 00:22:22.990

were handed out

00:22:23.370 --> 00:22:23.870

and

00:22:25.795 --> 00:22:26.695

she's popped

00:22:27.075 --> 00:22:28.835

up in other places. I think she finally

00:22:28.835 --> 00:22:29.575

has one.

00:22:31.305 --> 00:22:33.450

Like I said, my

00:22:33.450 --> 00:22:36.010

commissions were most exciting because I knew where

00:22:36.010 --> 00:22:37.070

they were going and

00:22:38.810 --> 00:22:39.130

and,

00:22:39.610 --> 00:22:42.115

all the specifics. I like doing bicentennial

00:22:42.495 --> 00:22:44.195

collages too.

Kate:

00:22:44.815 --> 00:22:46.255

Please give an

00:22:46.575 --> 00:22:49.135

example of one of

00:22:49.135 --> 00:22:49.570

them.

Gretchen:

00:22:49.970 --> 00:22:51.970

Well, I did the Cleveland Bicentennial. I had

00:22:51.970 --> 00:22:53.270

all the sports teams

00:22:53.570 --> 00:22:55.810

and all the arts. Cleveland's such a strange

00:22:55.810 --> 00:22:57.650

city because that's all they've got is art

00:22:57.650 --> 00:22:59.575

and then sports. Nothing in

00:23:00.155 --> 00:23:00.655

between.

Kate:

00:23:01.235 --> 00:23:03.635

Well, there are things like, you know, the

00:23:03.635 --> 00:23:05.575

lake.

Gretchen:

00:23:06.090 --> 00:23:08.010

Geography, yeah. That was all in the collage.

00:23:08.010 --> 00:23:09.690

I had to make it a collage. 

Kate:

The

00:23:09.690 --> 00:23:13.130

Emerald Necklace of the parks. 

Gretchen:

Well, yeah.

00:23:13.130 --> 00:23:15.275

That's in there. The landscape is in the

00:23:15.275 --> 00:23:17.535

collage because when I did cityscapes,

00:23:17.595 --> 00:23:19.935

there's always a horizon line and

00:23:20.635 --> 00:23:21.135

mostly

00:23:21.435 --> 00:23:24.140

recognizable things above the horizon line and then

00:23:24.140 --> 00:23:26.140

down below, like I did an oil company

00:23:26.140 --> 00:23:28.000

with their building and all the layers

00:23:28.700 --> 00:23:29.760

of rocks underneath

00:23:30.380 --> 00:23:31.200

this collage.

00:23:31.615 --> 00:23:34.655

It's just an amazing medium. You can

00:23:34.655 --> 00:23:35.875

push it any direction.

00:23:36.495 --> 00:23:39.155

I like some of my, the biographical

00:23:39.375 --> 00:23:41.440

ones too of people that are famous.

00:23:42.240 --> 00:23:44.560

There was a lawyer in Akron who

00:23:44.560 --> 00:23:47.280

founded, he started the convention center there,

00:23:47.280 --> 00:23:48.640

and he had a big law firm with

00:23:48.640 --> 00:23:51.165

a spiral staircase, and I had him at

00:23:51.165 --> 00:23:53.405

the bottom on his bicycle as a paperboy

00:23:53.405 --> 00:23:55.005

and at the top he's sitting at his

00:23:55.005 --> 00:23:56.145

executive desk.

00:23:58.430 --> 00:24:00.350

And, you know, the celebration for these things

00:24:00.350 --> 00:24:01.710

is even more fun because they had a

00:24:01.710 --> 00:24:03.710

big luncheon and everybody's dressed up and they

00:24:03.710 --> 00:24:05.230

unveiled it, and he and his wife were

00:24:05.230 --> 00:24:07.705

both in tears because of course she had to collaborate

00:24:07.705 --> 00:24:09.385

with me. I don't, you know, I can't

00:24:09.385 --> 00:24:11.305

go directly to someone who's supposed to be

00:24:11.305 --> 00:24:11.805

surprised.

Kate:

00:24:12.265 --> 00:24:13.245

Right, right.

Gretchen:

00:24:13.790 --> 00:24:16.430

That was just wonderful. 

Kate:

00:24:16.510 --> 00:24:18.750

Oh, that’s got to be very moving. 

Gretchen:

00:24:18.750 --> 00:24:20.290

We should always celebrate art.

00:24:21.685 --> 00:24:23.285

They say if you can't sell it, you

00:24:23.285 --> 00:24:24.425

have to celebrate it.

Kate:

00:24:24.725 --> 00:24:27.285

Celebrate art and celebrate life at the same time

Gretchen:

00:24:27.285 --> 00:24:28.425

Exactly.

Kate:

00:24:29.050 --> 00:24:30.590

Yeah. That's great.

00:24:31.210 --> 00:24:31.710

So,

00:24:32.330 --> 00:24:32.830

so,

00:24:33.450 --> 00:24:35.930

Gretchen, is there anything else you'd like to

00:24:35.930 --> 00:24:39.015

say about life or art or whatever?

Gretchen:

00:24:40.835 --> 00:24:41.335

No.

00:24:41.875 --> 00:24:42.775

Life is good.

Kate:
00:24:43.235 --> 00:24:44.935

Yes. It is, isn't it?

00:24:45.940 --> 00:24:48.207

And I hope you continue enjoying your time,

00:24:48.473 --> 00:24:48.740

you're,

00:24:49.940 --> 00:24:50.340

in,

00:24:50.820 --> 00:24:51.320

Arizona

00:24:51.940 --> 00:24:52.680

and also

00:24:53.455 --> 00:24:55.855

in Northeast Ohio because you kind of go back

00:24:55.855 --> 00:24:58.575

and forth, don't you? 

Gretchen:

Yes. I do. 

Kate:

00:24:58.575 --> 00:25:00.655

That's great. Well, I really appreciate you being

00:25:00.655 --> 00:25:01.715

on the show today.

00:25:02.265 --> 00:25:02.750

So

00:25:03.070 --> 00:25:05.070

fun to talk to you. 

Gretchen:

It's fun talking

00:25:05.070 --> 00:25:06.510

to you. Thank you for being such a

00:25:06.510 --> 00:25:08.450

good hostess. 

Kate:

Oh, well,

00:25:08.830 --> 00:25:09.570

my pleasure!

<close>
00:25:10.755 --> 00:25:12.995

This is Kate again. Thank you for listening

00:25:12.995 --> 00:25:13.735

to the show.

00:25:14.035 --> 00:25:16.855

Please share this episode with anyone who's fascinated

00:25:17.315 --> 00:25:19.720

by the fine art of collage and wants

00:25:19.720 --> 00:25:21.340

to learn more about it.